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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 4:54 am
It may be, like I said..it's something that I agree with, but it doesn't really fit with humanist values to use such a description for it, true or false. As anom pointed out in his own fashion, lol, humanism is about how we think things should be, not the way they are.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 4:57 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2021 at 5:00 am by Reforged.)
An affront to science and the pursuit of truth, like so much of what I see in the media today.
The job of any good scientist is to determine what is an empirical reality based on available data and evidence.
Science has no time for feelings and nor should it.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:00 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2021 at 5:03 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Dawkins was commenting about a social and political reality, and got that wrong - not science.
Everyone knows that people who are born biologically male, were born biologically male. Perhaps no one knows this better than the dysphoric, dissatisfied, and disaffected, themselves.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:05 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2021 at 5:05 am by Reforged.)
(April 22, 2021 at 5:00 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Dawkins was commenting about a social and political reality, and got that wrong - not science.
"Some men choose to identify as women, and some women choose to identify as men. You will be vilified if you deny that they literally are what they identify as. Discuss."
He was encouraging a debate on genetics versus identity and the consequences that the shutting down of the conversation has.
He is an evolutionary biologist and a public figure, there were few better suited to posing this question. I say posing this question, not dictating the prescribed answer as many seem to be fond of doing now.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:05 am
I agree that it's their prize and all. I mean, it is. There's no disputing that.
I think what's at issue here is: has the American Humanist Association used good judgement in revoking Dawkins's award?
On the one hand, Dawkins's remarks were clearly meant to stir the pot. They weren't made in a vacuum.
But on the other hand, the remarks themselves don't seem "antithetical to humanist values." Like, having a conversation about biological sex and gender... even to broach points of controversy... is a good thing.
I don't really think Dawkins opposes trans rights... although I'm unfamiliar with his exact position. I assume that if he ever did say anything that expressed clear opposition to trans rights, those remarks would have been cited instead.
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:10 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2021 at 5:15 am by The Grand Nudger.)
He's managed to shove his foot into his mouth a few times over the years, which they did specifically reference in their decision.
@ Reforged
-exactly, his comment was about the perception of vilification over some comment. He got that wrong, but it doesn't matter whether you think he got it wrong, as it's not science, and regardless of whether he got it right or wrong, it's a deeply thorny take for humanism. Here's your full quote..just in case you missed it.
Quote:In 2015, Rachel Dolezal, a white chapter president of NAACP, was vilified for identifying as Black.
Some men choose to identify as women, and some women choose to identify as men. You will be vilified if you deny that they literally are what they identify as. Discuss.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:12 am
(April 22, 2021 at 5:10 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: He's managed to shove his foot into his mouth a few times over the years, which they did specifically reference in their decision.
It would seem they value caution and prudent navigation of hot topics over humanism.
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:12 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2021 at 5:13 am by Brian37.)
(April 21, 2021 at 12:34 am)SUNGULA Wrote: Never liked Dawkins
He is a mixed bag for me. As far as his logic in science, for the most part I agree with him. But personality wise, he is a bit of a stuffed shirt. I went to the 2007 Crystal City(DC) convention and met him. I was warned by other atheists that he hated signing baseball style caps. I ran into him and had a "Born Again Atheist" baseball cap, asked him if he would sign it and he looked at me like I was trailer trash. He has always struck me as a stuffed shirt. But that does not negate all the science he does get right.
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:17 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2021 at 5:18 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 22, 2021 at 5:12 am)Reforged Wrote: (April 22, 2021 at 5:10 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: He's managed to shove his foot into his mouth a few times over the years, which they did specifically reference in their decision.
It would seem they value caution and prudent navigation of hot topics over humanism.
More like caution and prudence -in- hot topics inextricably linked to humanism. The human, in humanism, includes trans humans. I think people are taking my comments the wrong way. You can agree with dawkins, by all means. He could by right, ofc.
Neither of those two things would make his comments any less of an issue to humanist ideology, and it's their prize.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Dawkins loses humanist title
April 22, 2021 at 5:27 am
(This post was last modified: April 22, 2021 at 5:28 am by Reforged.)
(April 22, 2021 at 5:17 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (April 22, 2021 at 5:12 am)Reforged Wrote: It would seem they value caution and prudent navigation of hot topics over humanism.
More like caution and prudence -in- hot topics inextricably linked to humanism. The human, in humanism, includes trans humans. I think people are taking my comments the wrong way. You can agree with dawkins, by all means. He could by right, ofc.
Neither of those two things would make his comments any less of an issue to humanist ideology, and it's their prize.
I always thought humanism was doing your best to do the ethical thing by fellow humans and contributing to their benefit.
I would have thought Dawkins working towards our understanding of the origins of our species and his attempts to overturn people who would bar our way to that understanding would at the very least outweigh afew flippant posts on twitter.
I'm not really a fan of Dawkins but I respect him.
More than that though, the inability to question something presumed to be true sounds suspiciously like dogma. It makes me very uncomfortable so many people are just willing to lie back and accept that.
Question *everything*, isn't that the point of being a free thinker?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
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