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June 1, 2021 at 5:43 am (This post was last modified: June 1, 2021 at 6:00 am by johndoe122931.)
(June 1, 2021 at 5:39 am)arewethereyet Wrote: We have heard this all before.
Atheists don't hate god. They don't believe in a god or gods. There's a difference.
The problem comes in when the believers want to govern everyone with their holy book. Believe what you want...just don't think I, or anyone else, needs to believe as you do.
If you are here to evangelize you have the wrong audience, for the most part.
If you want to actually discuss things then pick one or two and start a conversation.
I have no intentions of trying to make you believe anything. I am not here to proselytize to anybody, again I'm here to ask individuals these types of questions, that's it. I just want to understand the individual and why they have the worldview that they have on an individual level.
(June 1, 2021 at 5:42 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: johndoe122931, your post is really incoherent. You start with the title “Why do you hate God” but then ramble about leprechauns. And then you claim atheists hate religious people. And then you go on saying how you are trying to understand other religions.
It’s very hard to reply to such post where there are several topics in one. It's not clear what you want to talk about.
Ok, yes, you are right. I do apologize for that. Thank you for the feedback, I think I will delete this post and try to ask in a different way.
(June 1, 2021 at 5:42 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: johndoe122931, your post is really incoherent. You start with the title “Why do you hate God” but then ramble about leprechauns. And then you claim atheists hate religious people. And then you go on saying how you are trying to understand other religions.
It’s very hard to reply to such post where there are several topics in one. It's not clear what you want to talk about.
Sorry to bother you with this, but how do I delete a thread? I can't seem to find out how to do that or who to ask.
(June 1, 2021 at 5:34 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: There are parents who don't teach their children about Father Christmas, because they don't like the idea. Would you say these people hate Santa Claus?
Boru
Ok, I understand.
So, can I ask you, do you hate the idea of god and why?
Of course I hate the idea of God (if I didn't, I wouldn't be a positive atheist). As to why, you claim to have done research into atheism, so I'll presume you're familiar with the arguments. That being the case, I'll just give you a few highlights:
-The idea of infinite punishment for finite sins.
-Infant damnation.
-Exclusion.
-The abrogation of personal responsibility.
-Gaps.
-Conflict with science.
-Logical inconsistencies.
-Prayer.
That'll do to go on with.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
(June 1, 2021 at 5:38 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: Ok, I understand.
So, can I ask you, do you hate the idea of god and why?
Of course I hate the idea of God (if I didn't, I wouldn't be a positive atheist). As to why, you claim to have done research into atheism, so I'll presume you're familiar with the arguments. That being the case, I'll just give you a few highlights:
-The idea of infinite punishment for finite sins.
-Infant damnation.
-Exclusion.
-The abrogation of personal responsibility.
-Gaps.
-Conflict with science.
-Logical inconsistencies.
-Prayer.
That'll do to go on with.
Boru
Thank you for sharing with me these reasons. If I may ask, what do you mean by infant damnation and Exclusion?
June 1, 2021 at 6:28 am (This post was last modified: June 1, 2021 at 6:30 am by Belacqua.)
(June 1, 2021 at 5:26 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: there is a difference between hating God and the idea of God. Can you please explain more what you mean by that?
Unlike most here, I think it's perfectly possible for an atheist to hate God. On the face of it, of course, it's contradictory, because supposedly one doesn't hate what isn't really there. But this is assuming that emotions obey the laws of rationality, which they obviously don't. It's entirely possible for a person to hate and love someone at the same time, or to want something and not want it at the same time.
Some atheists speak as if the mind -- including the emotions -- is a kind of rational calculator trapped in corporeal dross. So that they can't imagine emotions and reason in conflict. But this is just a holdover from the idea of a soul, and not really supportable if you're really an atheist. Atheists who take their understanding of the human mind further understand that it arises somehow (nobody knows quite how) from electrochemical events in the body, and there is no reason to think that the ideas and emotions these events give rise to have to be in accordance with one another.
That said, it probably isn't wise to say about any individual atheist posting here what his or her emotions are. We can't discern that with clarity. Certainly, as this thread so far has demonstrated, several people are full of emotion -- whether it's hatred for religious ideas, or anger at what they perceive the results of religion to be, we can only look at case by case.
One thing to keep in mind is that language on this forum is often vulgar, insulting, and accusatory, far in excess of what would be tolerated in other situations. The rush to judgment is a popular sport. But this also happens when people disagree about political ideology, or feel that you are posting too much about your favorite band, or any other subject that provides an opportunity to vent.
I respect the fact that you are asking questions. It may take a little while for emotions to settle to the point where collegial conversation can take place -- if it ever does. But I notice that you are remaining calm, and I think that's a good way to start.
June 1, 2021 at 6:31 am (This post was last modified: June 1, 2021 at 6:35 am by brewer.)
(June 1, 2021 at 5:04 am)johndoe122931 Wrote:
As I delve deeper into these forums, I find hatred for God and religion that runs to the very marrow of your bones(Not all obviously but many). I see so much contempt and animosity resentment and spite towards anyone who even dares to give one second of their time to the worship of any type of supreme being or deity. As I continue thread after thread, I continue to see this resentment and anathema towards a being that in your very description of self you do not believe in. As I am sure you have probably heard this before but why? Why have so much resentment towards something that you do not even believe exists? I try to understand and look from your perspective and think how I can hate something with every fiber of my being that does not even exist. Could I hate leprechauns so much that I would spend so much time talking about my hatred for them? What did the leprechaun do to me? Then I think maybe it is not the leprechaun perse but maybe the people who believe in leprechauns upsets me so. Now my hatred for the leprechaun is not towards the leprechaun but its believers. How can people believe in such nonsense as a leprechaun? Idiots! Then I ask myself why will I give so much of my energy to the believers of leprechauns? What have they done to me? Yes! That’s it. The believers. The believers are the ones I must attack. Why? Because they knock on my door at 8 am on a Saturday to tell me about how their supreme leprechaun will save me from all my despair and hurt in my life and if I only just believe in the supreme leprechaun and give all my money then I can go to some ultimate utopia after I die. Because they preach to me their leprechaun rules and regulations that they themselves do not even keep. Because they contradict themselves and are hypocrites. Because they make me feel bad about my lifestyle and say how perfect and pure, they are. Because they try to and successfully convert others into their stupid belief system about a supreme leprechaun. Then I continue to think and ponder on this. Why do I hate them so? They have not knocked on my door. They haven’t converted me. I do not really care if they think my lifestyle choices are wrong, I will continue to do what I do and happily. Lots of people contradict themselves and are hypocrites even my fellow (fill in the blank). So then why? Why do I hate them so much? Why do I hate this leprechaun god? Ah, I know. Because they waste their precious time worshipping a fake person and spend all their money and energy on propagating such nonsense. But again, why does that affect me? I do not give my time nor money to them and they don’t take anything from me. I want to free them from their pain and misery of having to worship such a being. Yet, they are happy to they want to they freely choose to. Well not all of them, their children are forced to. Are they? Maybe at a young age, the child does not have a choice but the same could be said that an individual is forcing a child not to go to the supreme leprechaun church. You are taking the child’s rights away from them to the same degree. How many people left the leprechaun church as they got older? They freely chose to not be a part of it. No, I got it. It is political! The stupid ignorant leprechaun believers are passing legislation within my country that takes away my rights! This I can understand the most. I could see how an individual would feel alienated and disrespected and ignored when a group of people who have a set of beliefs passes these laws that encourage and even reward individuals who have the same belief and could possibly hurt those that don’t, or at the least threaten them with big scary men with big scary guns who at any second could kick in my door and tie me up in chains and lock me in a cage like an animal. But is that what it is? Are there any laws that would do that? I suppose the lack of laws or the prohibition of doing what I want to freely do (Same-sex marriage, Blue Laws, etc.) This I suppose could cause me to want to actively be against a belief or ideology. Yet again are the laws in place so restrictive so adverse that I need to spend my life fighting against this thought or ideology? Well, yes. Ok fair enough. Or, am I looking too deeply into this and my loathing is not exactly in the fictional character called the Supreme Leprechaun nor is it really towards the individuals, well in some way it is, but is it more of tribalism? Do I hate the believers because they believe or because they are the other team? I personally can not stand people who root for the New England Patriots. Do I hate the individuals, or do I hate the team? Do I hate the team or what the team represents? Or do I just hate Tom Brady and anybody who worships him then I hate them too? Am I using the word hate in a hyperbolic sense or is it true to the sense of the word? Do you really “hate” these individuals in the true sense of the word or is it more of just an annoyance? And why?
I am sorry ahead of time if I have offended you in playing out this question-answer type of writing. I tend to do this for myself to try to understand something, playing devil's advocate so to say. Please feel free to let me know what I did wrong or correct my understanding. I don’t mean to say that this is how any individual in here thinks or says exactly but I am sure some probably do.
As a Christian, I do not agree with say Islam or Hinduism or Atheist, etc. Yet, at the same time, I do not spend any real amount of energy trying to refute them or condemn them. On the contrary, I tend to spend more time trying to understand them. In doing this I have got some pushback from my own fellow believers as to why I am trying to understand these groups and why in the heck am I reading the Koran! (I get attacked from both sides so to say lol) I read the books (Bible, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, The Havamal, the Humanist Manifesto I, II, & III, etc.) and try to grasp their understanding of the world and why. I go to their websites and their message boards and ask many questions to fully understand their beliefs. Now all this is not to say any individual that proclaims their atheistic belief or Hindu, or Islamic, etc., does not do the same, they do, but my question will go back to why have some much hatred or disdain for them or more specific a god or deity? I am trying to not have any presuppositions when coming into this and am truly trying to understand the individual more than the group. Thank you for your time reading this and if possible if you chose to retort please be as concise and clear as possible so I may understand you as an individual. The last thing I want to do is assume what you mean, as much as it may sound odd, I really truly want to understand you and your belief or lack thereof.
Good morning john.
Apparently you have a lot of preconceived notions about atheists, what they believe and how they act or live their lives. Maybe you should have conversations with us before you judge.
And if you think that there are not christian 'atheist haters' and that some atheists might have valid reasons to be angry then I think your belief may be causing you to be ignorant.
If you want to believe in the god concept it makes no difference to me. But you've come to this forum and told there majority of the members that there is something wrong with us. If you think about it you might understand that your behavior is exactly why many atheists are your so called haters.
Could it be that you have a log in your eye?
Edit: Question, do you only know radical internet atheists?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
To answer the thread title, you can't hate what you don't believe in.
You can hate the organisation that has sprung up around it, that claims to follow it, and that acts in its name.
You can also hate those who claim to speak for it, and, to a degree, those who follow them.
Example:
I don't hate "god". I simply don't believe it exists.
I do hate the Catholic church for all it has done, and continues to do, to keep itself in influence, wealth, and comfort.
I hate the priests and the nuns who have systematically abused children and others, enforcing racist doctrines against native peoples around the world, and have held back science and learning for hundreds of years.
I hate the leaders of the church for covering up and protecting pedo priests and abusers throughout the world, who perpetuate and celebrate hideous individuals like "mother" Theresa, who stop women from gaining influence withon their boys' club.
And, in many ways, I hate the followers who see these excesses, these abuses, and still blindly follow this outdated organisation or, worse, who support and abet them.
(June 1, 2021 at 5:26 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: there is a difference between hating God and the idea of God. Can you please explain more what you mean by that?
Unlike most here, I think it's perfectly possible for an atheist to hate God. On the face of it, of course, it's contradictory, because supposedly one doesn't hate what isn't really there. But this is assuming that emotions obey the laws of rationality, which they obviously don't. It's entirely possible for a person to hate and love someone at the same time, or to want something and not want it at the same time.
Some atheists speak as if the mind -- including the emotions -- is a kind of rational calculator trapped in corporeal dross. So that they can't imagine emotions and reason in conflict. But this is just a holdover from the idea of a soul, and not really supportable if you're really an atheist. Atheists who take their understanding of the human mind further understand that it arises somehow (nobody knows quite how) from electrochemical events in the body, and there is no reason to think that the ideas and emotions these events give rise to have to be in accordance with one another.
That said, it probably isn't wise to say about any individual atheist posting here what his or her emotions are. We can't discern that with clarity. Certainly, as this thread so far has demonstrated, several people are full of emotion -- whether it's hatred for religious ideas, or anger at what they perceive the results of religion to be, we can only look at case by case.
One thing to keep in mind is that language on this forum is often vulgar, insulting, and accusatory, far in excess of what would be tolerated in other situations. The rush to judgment is a popular sport. But this also happens when people disagree about political ideology, or feel that you are posting too much about your favorite band, or any other subject that provides an opportunity to vent.
I respect the fact that you are asking questions. It may take a little while for emotions to settle to the point where collegial conversation can take place -- if it ever does. But I notice that you are remaining calm, and I think that's a good way to start.
Thank you for your response I really appreciate it and your honesty. I do apologize for my wording, you are right in that I came to a conclusion too quickly and misunderstood what the individuals meant. I will be more careful in how I post in the future. Thank you for your insight and positive criticism.
(June 1, 2021 at 6:37 am)johndoe122931 Wrote: Thank you for your response I really appreciate it and your honesty.
No problem! And I'm sorry if I came across as critical of your wording.
One thing you can see already from the replies: Although an atheist doesn't believe in any gods at all, many atheists associate the word "God" with something very specific. They have a very clear picture of what the God who doesn't exist is like.
I'm reminded of a conversation I heard years ago, between two little kids who were learning English as a second language:
"Is there a gorilla in this room?"
"No there isn't."
"What is it like?"
"..."
So a lot of atheists learned about a specific view of God when they were kids, and that's what they think of. I've been told flat out that I shouldn't talk on this forum about the God of Spinoza, of Jacob Boehme, of William Blake, of Simone Weil, or of Martin Buber. None of these wonderful thinkers would agree with a single item on Brian's list of things that he doesn't approve of. Yet all of them believed passionately in God. For the most part conversations on this forum remain limited to the Sunday School version of the Christian God, and the bad people who advocate it.
It means that the emotional reaction people have to your question is more rooted in personal history than in metaphysics.
As I delve deeper into these forums, I find hatred for God and religion that runs to the very marrow of your bones(Not all obviously but many). I see so much contempt and animosity resentment and spite towards anyone who even dares to give one second of their time to the worship of any type of supreme being or deity. As I continue thread after thread, I continue to see this resentment and anathema towards a being that in your very description of self you do not believe in. As I am sure you have probably heard this before but why? Why have so much resentment towards something that you do not even believe exists? I try to understand and look from your perspective and think how I can hate something with every fiber of my being that does not even exist. Could I hate leprechauns so much that I would spend so much time talking about my hatred for them? What did the leprechaun do to me? Then I think maybe it is not the leprechaun perse but maybe the people who believe in leprechauns upsets me so. Now my hatred for the leprechaun is not towards the leprechaun but its believers. How can people believe in such nonsense as a leprechaun? Idiots! Then I ask myself why will I give so much of my energy to the believers of leprechauns? What have they done to me? Yes! That’s it. The believers. The believers are the ones I must attack. Why? Because they knock on my door at 8 am on a Saturday to tell me about how their supreme leprechaun will save me from all my despair and hurt in my life and if I only just believe in the supreme leprechaun and give all my money then I can go to some ultimate utopia after I die. Because they preach to me their leprechaun rules and regulations that they themselves do not even keep. Because they contradict themselves and are hypocrites. Because they make me feel bad about my lifestyle and say how perfect and pure, they are. Because they try to and successfully convert others into their stupid belief system about a supreme leprechaun. Then I continue to think and ponder on this. Why do I hate them so? They have not knocked on my door. They haven’t converted me. I do not really care if they think my lifestyle choices are wrong, I will continue to do what I do and happily. Lots of people contradict themselves and are hypocrites even my fellow (fill in the blank). So then why? Why do I hate them so much? Why do I hate this leprechaun god? Ah, I know. Because they waste their precious time worshipping a fake person and spend all their money and energy on propagating such nonsense. But again, why does that affect me? I do not give my time nor money to them and they don’t take anything from me. I want to free them from their pain and misery of having to worship such a being. Yet, they are happy to they want to they freely choose to. Well not all of them, their children are forced to. Are they? Maybe at a young age, the child does not have a choice but the same could be said that an individual is forcing a child not to go to the supreme leprechaun church. You are taking the child’s rights away from them to the same degree. How many people left the leprechaun church as they got older? They freely chose to not be a part of it. No, I got it. It is political! The stupid ignorant leprechaun believers are passing legislation within my country that takes away my rights! This I can understand the most. I could see how an individual would feel alienated and disrespected and ignored when a group of people who have a set of beliefs passes these laws that encourage and even reward individuals who have the same belief and could possibly hurt those that don’t, or at the least threaten them with big scary men with big scary guns who at any second could kick in my door and tie me up in chains and lock me in a cage like an animal. But is that what it is? Are there any laws that would do that? I suppose the lack of laws or the prohibition of doing what I want to freely do (Same-sex marriage, Blue Laws, etc.) This I suppose could cause me to want to actively be against a belief or ideology. Yet again are the laws in place so restrictive so adverse that I need to spend my life fighting against this thought or ideology? Well, yes. Ok fair enough. Or, am I looking too deeply into this and my loathing is not exactly in the fictional character called the Supreme Leprechaun nor is it really towards the individuals, well in some way it is, but is it more of tribalism? Do I hate the believers because they believe or because they are the other team? I personally can not stand people who root for the New England Patriots. Do I hate the individuals, or do I hate the team? Do I hate the team or what the team represents? Or do I just hate Tom Brady and anybody who worships him then I hate them too? Am I using the word hate in a hyperbolic sense or is it true to the sense of the word? Do you really “hate” these individuals in the true sense of the word or is it more of just an annoyance? And why?
I am sorry ahead of time if I have offended you in playing out this question-answer type of writing. I tend to do this for myself to try to understand something, playing devil's advocate so to say. Please feel free to let me know what I did wrong or correct my understanding. I don’t mean to say that this is how any individual in here thinks or says exactly but I am sure some probably do.
As a Christian, I do not agree with say Islam or Hinduism or Atheist, etc. Yet, at the same time, I do not spend any real amount of energy trying to refute them or condemn them. On the contrary, I tend to spend more time trying to understand them. In doing this I have got some pushback from my own fellow believers as to why I am trying to understand these groups and why in the heck am I reading the Koran! (I get attacked from both sides so to say lol) I read the books (Bible, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, The Havamal, the Humanist Manifesto I, II, & III, etc.) and try to grasp their understanding of the world and why. I go to their websites and their message boards and ask many questions to fully understand their beliefs. Now all this is not to say any individual that proclaims their atheistic belief or Hindu, or Islamic, etc., does not do the same, they do, but my question will go back to why have some much hatred or disdain for them or more specific a god or deity? I am trying to not have any presuppositions when coming into this and am truly trying to understand the individual more than the group. Thank you for your time reading this and if possible if you chose to retort please be as concise and clear as possible so I may understand you as an individual. The last thing I want to do is assume what you mean, as much as it may sound odd, I really truly want to understand you and your belief or lack thereof.
Good morning john.
Apparently you have a lot of preconceived notions about atheists, what they believe and how they act or live their lives. Maybe you should have conversations with us before you judge.
And if you think that there are not christian 'atheist haters' and that some atheists might have valid reasons to be angry then I think your belief may be causing you to be ignorant.
If you want to believe in the god concept it makes no difference to me. But you've come to this forum and told there majority of the members that there is something wrong with us. If you think about it you might understand that your behavior is exactly why many atheists are your so called haters.
Could it be that you have a log in your eye?
Edit: Question, do you only know radical internet atheists?
Good morning Brewer,
Thank you for your response on this subject. As I have responded to another member I do apologize for jumping the gun so to say. I don't mean to assume what one thinks or feels that was not my intention and I will do better in the future.
I never meant that anybody is wrong in what they believe. I have no issue with people believing whatever they want again I'm only interested as to why they hold the worldview that they do. My wording was wrong and again I apologize for that and will be more careful.
Most of my interactions with atheists have been online. I don't know many atheists and the ones I do know (literally 2) have very different reasons for why they are atheists which lead me down this path of why. I have done the same with other individuals from different worldviews and ask the same question. Why. I know not all atheists are "militant" and most are nice people that live great lives.
Hates a strong word. Christer god is one of my least favorites I suppose - but he can't help that, just the way he was written.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
