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Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Quote:I'm pretty sure slippery slopes are a logical fallacy.
It isn't a slippery slope. What stops someone from justifying their survival at the expense of control over your body?. What grants you the right to deny them their so-called right to life?
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
There's no need to refer to hypotheticals when discussing this issue. We've criminalized abortion in the past. It was a shitshow.

It's unfortunate that american chistendom has picked this issue, out of all issues, to stave off political irrelevance. Just imagine how much less harm they'd have caused if they were super duper committed to criminalizing the color yellow instead.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 6, 2021 at 2:14 am)Astreja Wrote: I don't think it's a slippery slope, John; I think it's technically possible.  If you deny someone the right to control their own body, it can be used as a legal precedent.

Your argument seemed be that if we don't accept abortion, it will/might lead to forced kidney donations. That's no different from arguing that if we don't reject abortion, we're setting a legal precedent for mothers to legally euthanize their babies within the first six months of life as a belated abortion.

We shouldn't accept/deny abortion on the basis of some other worse thing we don't want.
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
No one has to accept abortion. No one is asking you to accept abortion. People are wondering how much thought you've given to the logistics - the actual nuts and bolts, of forced birth.

Here in the us, we decriminalized abortion because criminalizing it caused a thing we didn't want. On the reverse, if we shouldn't do something because of our preference for or against some other thing, cutting through aaaaaalllll the bullshit - why should we criminalize abortion to please your ridiculous god? Will you be damned by proxy if we don't? Is that a problem for the us government to solve? Circling around this is pointless. If you believe strongly enough to force a birth, at least have the courage of your own convictions to plainly discuss it.

I'm not convinced that it would be a prudent use of the power of the state, and, if we're being honest...there are probably better ways to prevent abortions without the baggage, don't you think?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 6, 2021 at 10:34 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If you believe strongly enough to force a birth, at least have the courage of your own convictions to plainly discuss it.

As I said earlier, the real world is too complex to be thinking in such absolute terms. We are not slaves to rules—even the Bible asks us to break them when better outcomes can be achieved (e.g. Jesus healing on the Sabbath, or David eating bread from the Temple). As such, I have no issues with abortion being justified under some scenarios but not under others.

That said, I'm not a fan of many pro-choice arguments; they have a certain avoidant nature to them.
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 5, 2021 at 2:42 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(June 5, 2021 at 2:34 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: Trying to paint your cult in the nicest light while ignoring all the bad stuff. Just another kind of selection.

I presented my anecdote in response to an overrepresentation of the bad stuff. But if you want a critique of religious behavior read the Bible. It does a better job at calling out the hypocrisy among believers than what I've heard atheists say on this forum.

Here's a verse applicable to what Fake Messiah presents in his documentary:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are" (Matthew 23:15, NIV).
Is slavery moral? The bible says it is.
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 6, 2021 at 1:41 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Is slavery moral? The bible says it is.

Agree to disagree.
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Quote:Your argument seemed be that if we don't accept abortion, it will/might lead to forced kidney donations.

No we're saying if you can justify using someone else's body for one purpose why not another. 


Quote: That's no different from arguing that if we don't reject abortion, we're setting a legal precedent for mothers to legally euthanize their babies within the first six months of life as a belated abortion.
Nope, totally different euthanase has nothing to do with bodily autonomy. It's not the same as force pregnancy.


Quote:We shouldn't accept/deny abortion on the basis of some other worse thing we don't want.
Yes we should because again if you can justify one violation why not others? Your example deals with two different things.
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
Reply
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 6, 2021 at 2:20 pm)Helios Wrote:
Quote:Your argument seemed be that if we don't accept abortion, it will/might lead to forced kidney donations.

No we're saying if you can justify using someone else's body for one purpose why not another. 

Unless you can show that the consequences of denying abortion makes forced organ donations likely to occur, the argument is invalid. The fact that abortions have already been outlawed for much of history, and no such event ever occurred, demonstrates that this is a slippery slope fallacy.
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RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 6, 2021 at 2:41 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(June 6, 2021 at 2:20 pm)Helios Wrote: No we're saying if you can justify using someone else's body for one purpose why not another. 

Unless you can show that the consequences of denying abortion makes forced organ donations likely to occur, the argument holds no water. The fact that abortions have already been outlawed for much of history, and no such events ever occurred, demonstrate that this is a slippery slope fallacy.

The legality of abortions over time isn't really the point.  Like most things, making abortions illegal doesn't make them not exist.  They just exist under unsafe conditions.

I am not going to even reach out there for forced organ donation, that's just ridiculous.

Extremes don't tell the story.  This reminds me of the people who think legalizing homosexuality will lead to legalizing beastiality.  When your argument is to to go to the utmost extreme...it's obvious you are grasping at straws to back your stance.

edit - legalizing homosexuality should be legalizing same sex marriage.
 “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ~Albert Einstein                                                 
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