If you design a meat grinder, the individual qualities of the operator are irrelevant to the operation of the machine, or the consistency of it's end product.

(September 30, 2021 at 9:26 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(September 30, 2021 at 9:17 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: It's not a bad apple problem.  Generously, we can assume that kids who dream about being cops are good apples, and even so, these are the results.

this is the best that good people can do in our system

The bad apple thing was an aside. Even if it's not a bad apple problem, less bad apples is a good thing. But I think bad apples (or more generally) "police culture" contributes significantly to the problem. 

A 4 year education requirement alongside a quasi-repurposing of police could achieve much. Bad apple or no, I think that's worth trying.

And the fact that crime is so heavily linked to poverty, which itself is pretty heavily linked to race, the disproportionate number of minorities they see when they patrol the dregs of humanity ends up creating a feedback loop of racism that, frankly, could very well only be helped by a vast overhaul of society.

(September 30, 2021 at 10:24 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If you design a meat grinder, the individual qualities of the operator are irrelevant to the operation of the machine, or the consistency of it's end product.

(September 30, 2021 at 10:37 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(September 30, 2021 at 9:26 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: The bad apple thing was an aside. Even if it's not a bad apple problem, less bad apples is a good thing. But I think bad apples (or more generally) "police culture" contributes significantly to the problem. 

A 4 year education requirement alongside a quasi-repurposing of police could achieve much. Bad apple or no, I think that's worth trying.

And the fact that crime is so heavily linked to poverty, which itself is pretty heavily linked to race, the disproportionate number of minorities they see when they patrol the dregs of humanity ends up creating a feedback loop of racism that, frankly, could very well only be helped by a vast overhaul of society.

I'm all for solving poverty and/or foundational flaws in our criminal justice system. But that ain't gonna happen overnight. A good interim solution might even be necessary to make the changes you guys want to see come about.

And be careful not to underestimate the power of education. A police force full of social workers with 4 year degrees not only would serve greater benefit to communities, something like that may be instrumental in dismantling the meat grinder in the first place.

Considering that 20% of current police are exmilitary, and pondering the percentage that will fight police for cash in a tight economy, adds a kink to the defunding decrement.  And with good luck, boosts TV ratings.  Domestic tranquility fucking kills ratings.

(October 1, 2021 at 1:21 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(September 30, 2021 at 10:24 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If you design a meat grinder, the individual qualities of the operator are irrelevant to the operation of the machine, or the consistency of it's end product.

(September 30, 2021 at 10:37 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: And the fact that crime is so heavily linked to poverty, which itself is pretty heavily linked to race, the disproportionate number of minorities they see when they patrol the dregs of humanity ends up creating a feedback loop of racism that, frankly, could very well only be helped by a vast overhaul of society.

I'm all for solving poverty and/or foundational flaws in our criminal justice system. But that ain't gonna happen overnight. A good interim solution might even be necessary to make the changes you guys want to see come about.

And be careful not to underestimate the power of education. A police force full of social workers with 4 year degrees not only would serve greater benefit to communities, something like that may be instrumental in dismantling the meat grinder in the first place.

I like this idea. It's not like saying "just educate a bunch of rookies and they'll stay beat cops forever." Long enough in the system , they move up the ladder, yeah? So the police chiefs and lieutenants will become those with that education too.

I was watching a thing about this police psychologist who talked about the damaging cycles of building pressure that cops get into. Where they get a rush from working the streets and find trouble relating to things at home. So they work more, in this high threat environment every day, never getting down time because going home and doing domestic stuff feels like a depression of the rush from work. But if they don't get that down time, that high alert mindset builds and builds until they start having stress and trauma responses, making mistakes.

If police officers were educated to understand the psychology of those they deal with, it would extend to understanding what is going on inside themselves and recognizing what they themselves need. I think that cycle sounds addicting and not a lot of people have tools to break down what is going on inside nor having any solutions to fix it.

(October 1, 2021 at 5:36 am)Ten Wrote:

(October 1, 2021 at 1:21 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: I'm all for solving poverty and/or foundational flaws in our criminal justice system. But that ain't gonna happen overnight. A good interim solution might even be necessary to make the changes you guys want to see come about.

And be careful not to underestimate the power of education. A police force full of social workers with 4 year degrees not only would serve greater benefit to communities, something like that may be instrumental in dismantling the meat grinder in the first place.

I like this idea. It's not like saying "just educate a bunch of rookies and they'll stay beat cops forever." Long enough in the system , they move up the ladder, yeah? So the police chiefs and lieutenants will become those with that education too.

I was watching a thing about this police psychologist who talked about the damaging cycles of building pressure that cops get into. Where they get a rush from working the streets and find trouble relating to things at home. So they work more, in this high threat environment every day, never getting down time because going home and doing domestic stuff feels like a depression of the rush from work. But if they don't get that down time, that high alert mindset builds and builds until they start having stress and trauma responses, making mistakes.

If police officers were educated to understand the psychology of those they deal with, it would extend to understanding what is going on inside themselves and recognizing what they themselves need. I think that cycle sounds addicting and not a lot of people have tools to break down what is going on inside nor having any solutions to fix it.

An adjunct to this might be to restrict cops to dealing with things that require cops, and have social workers deal with the rest. I don't really see the need to send out a car and two cops with guns, batons, tasers, pepper spray, and body armour to deal with a homeless person sleeping on a bench. Maybe it would be better to reserve them for things like active shooter situations and robberies in progress.

Boru

(October 1, 2021 at 5:36 am)Ten Wrote:

(October 1, 2021 at 1:21 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: I'm all for solving poverty and/or foundational flaws in our criminal justice system. But that ain't gonna happen overnight. A good interim solution might even be necessary to make the changes you guys want to see come about.

And be careful not to underestimate the power of education. A police force full of social workers with 4 year degrees not only would serve greater benefit to communities, something like that may be instrumental in dismantling the meat grinder in the first place.

I like this idea. It's not like saying "just educate a bunch of rookies and they'll stay beat cops forever." Long enough in the system , they move up the ladder, yeah? So the police chiefs and lieutenants will become those with that education too.

I was watching a thing about this police psychologist who talked about the damaging cycles of building pressure that cops get into. Where they get a rush from working the streets and find trouble relating to things at home. So they work more, in this high threat environment every day, never getting down time because going home and doing domestic stuff feels like a depression of the rush from work. But if they don't get that down time, that high alert mindset builds and builds until they start having stress and trauma responses, making mistakes.

If police officers were educated to understand the psychology of those they deal with, it would extend to understanding what is going on inside themselves and recognizing what they themselves need. I think that cycle sounds addicting and not a lot of people have tools to break down what is going on inside nor having any solutions to fix it.

There was a court case a few years ago where a department refused to hire a candidate because he scored too highly on an intelligence test. The department's argument was that candidates who are overqualified for the position or too intelligent are at greater odds to leave the department sooner rather than later, costing the department in terms of officer training gone to waste. The department won that case.

How would you respond to such arguments if you were advocating for higher educational standards for police officers?

(September 30, 2021 at 6:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(September 30, 2021 at 12:54 pm)TaraJo Wrote: I hate how the right is claiming that the left seriously wants to defund the police into nonexistence.  Fact is, the only places with a strong enough democratic influence to defund police also have such strong unions that the police unions won’t let it happen.  

Defunding the police isn’t about making police not exist anymore; it’s saying that small town police don’t need military equipment yet my parents small Oklahoma town of 30,000 has an armored humvee.  That’s unnecessary.  

Me, I think there’s a lot of stuff police are injected into that would be better relegated to others.  Like, if instead of criminalizing homelessness and drug abuse, what if we tried to help the homeless get off the streets and clean up addicts?  Police don’t need to be first responders for most mental health checks either.

Isn't it funny how the right spent 40 years attacking unions, starting with Reagan's successful busting of the air traffic controller's unions. 

And I also find it funny that they are all anti government when Dems are in charge, but pro blue when they have the majority.

If the right fears a tyrannical government, then why are they so pro gun? There does need to be a separation between federal military and local police. But if you are arming police like they are landing on the beaches of Normandy, they are belying their own logic. 

I think, regardless of party, if everyone is being honest, everyone wants both police and society to go to bed at night without getting killed. 

But if both society and police are armed to the teeth, regardless of zip code, urban, suburban or rural, there is no way mistrust will go away. 

Nobody sane likes living under fear of crime no matter their zip code, unless they are assholes like Al Capone or John Gotti.

The ones you’re seeing now seem to fall into one of two categories:

1). The right wing propaganda has already whipped them into so much fear that they already think the gestapo is going to knock down their door tomorrow and force them to be gay or something

Or

2). They want to larp as Rambo and carry around the biggest, toughest looking guns they can find with no concern how uncomfortable it makes other people

(October 1, 2021 at 12:16 pm)TaraJo Wrote:

(September 30, 2021 at 6:28 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Isn't it funny how the right spent 40 years attacking unions, starting with Reagan's successful busting of the air traffic controller's unions. 

And I also find it funny that they are all anti government when Dems are in charge, but pro blue when they have the majority.

If the right fears a tyrannical government, then why are they so pro gun? There does need to be a separation between federal military and local police. But if you are arming police like they are landing on the beaches of Normandy, they are belying their own logic. 

I think, regardless of party, if everyone is being honest, everyone wants both police and society to go to bed at night without getting killed. 

But if both society and police are armed to the teeth, regardless of zip code, urban, suburban or rural, there is no way mistrust will go away. 

Nobody sane likes living under fear of crime no matter their zip code, unless they are assholes like Al Capone or John Gotti.

The ones you’re seeing now seem to fall into one of two categories:

1). The right wing propaganda has already whipped them into so much fear that they already think the gestapo is going to knock down their door tomorrow and force them to be gay or something

Or

2). They want to larp as Rambo and carry around the biggest, toughest looking guns they can find with no concern how uncomfortable it makes other people

Uh huh......

Here is the gun I carry every day. 



I carry it in a pocket in a wallet print holster. (appears as a wallet in pocket)


Terrified are you?

(October 1, 2021 at 1:16 pm)onlinebiker Wrote:

(October 1, 2021 at 12:16 pm)TaraJo Wrote: The ones you’re seeing now seem to fall into one of two categories:

1). The right wing propaganda has already whipped them into so much fear that they already think the gestapo is going to knock down their door tomorrow and force them to be gay or something

Or

2). They want to larp as Rambo and carry around the biggest, toughest looking guns they can find with no concern how uncomfortable it makes other people

Uh huh......

Here is the gun I carry every day. 



I carry it in a pocket in a wallet print holster. (appears as a wallet in pocket)


Terrified are you?