I would have done exactly the same thing(and have before,though not in church).

Because he could see where the conversation would've gone if he had told the truth and I imagine that he has waaay better things to do with his time.

As I said, I've done it too and for the same reason.

(November 19, 2011 at 3:41 am)AthiestAtheist Wrote:

(November 18, 2011 at 4:53 pm)Milky Tea Wrote: I can't help but feel that disproportionate criticism is being applied because it involves the religious.

Criticism to and from who?

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(November 18, 2011 at 4:53 pm)Milky Tea Wrote: This is hardly a situation unique to Churches and religious people.

It can happen any time a person finds them self in a situation where retaining good relations with a social group requires a certain degree of conformation to that groups expectations which may be achieved through the telling of inconsequential white lies. As for you Grandfathers motivation without asking him we can only speculate but I can think of a variety of reasons why he said what he did ranging from a desire to shield you from the disapproval of those asking the questions to a desire to avoid one of those 'loud conversations' about the existence of God you mentioned.

Perhaps there are some people out there who have a strict policy of telling no lies, no matter how small and insignificant or regardless of the consequences, but for most of us the telling of white lies or bending the truth is simply another tool of negotiating the trials and tribulations of life. I can't help but feel that disproportionate criticism is being applied because it involves the religious.

I never really meant to ask why my grandfather said that, but that's what I was thinking. What I really just wanted to ask whether it is better to lie to people in church about this sort of thing in general. Going by your answer... that would be a yes then?

The criticism part of my response was mainly directed at IATIA and Minimalist.

It would be yes because there are some situations where there is little benefit to inviting confrontation and this is one of them. As your story didn't include you correcting your Grandfather I can't help but think that you also recognised this.

Meh, I don't think it matters if your Grandpa lied. Though I prefer to tell the truth, sometimes it is best to avoid unnecessary confrontation by telling a small lie. The woman was happy believing that you go to another church (and seeing that she believes many other more ridiculous things, I think this one can slip ) and your Grandpa can go to his church in peace without being judged for having an atheist grandson.

(November 18, 2011 at 2:34 pm)IATIA Wrote: IMHO lying is always wrong. Some abide by 'little white lies', but then that sets up a subjective line that can easily be manipulated through rationalization.

Oh come on. So are you saying you never use them?

(November 19, 2011 at 12:04 pm)ElDinero Wrote:

(November 18, 2011 at 2:34 pm)IATIA Wrote: IMHO lying is always wrong. Some abide by 'little white lies', but then that sets up a subjective line that can easily be manipulated through rationalization.

Oh come on. So are you saying you never use them?

Not anymore. Not since I turned 50. I say it like it is and if someone does not like the answer, they should have never asked the question. Even prior to turning 50, I most always just shut up rather than tell a lie and the few 'white lies' I spoke were very generalized and could be rationalized into a truth. Upon examining this, I realized I was subjugating myself to the will of others.

I think life's a little less black and white than that.

(November 19, 2011 at 11:58 am)Kayenneh Wrote: Meh, I don't think it matters if your Grandpa lied. Though I prefer to tell the truth, sometimes it is best to avoid unnecessary confrontation by telling a small lie. The woman was happy believing that you go to another church (and seeing that she believes many other more ridiculous things, I think this one can slip ) and your Grandpa can go to his church in peace without being judged for having an atheist grandson.

Yeah, but not everybody who doesn't go to church is an atheist. I don't think avoiding embarrassment to himself was what he was trying to do. He tried to avoid confrontation, albeit poorly.

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(November 19, 2011 at 11:48 am)Milky Tea Wrote: It would be yes because there are some situations where there is little benefit to inviting confrontation and this is one of them. As your story didn't include you correcting your Grandfather I can't help but think that you also recognised this.

Yes, but this was not a particularly good lie. If she asked "what church do you go to?" that would have made the conversation as badly as it possibly could. I would not have been able to answer that, and at that point I would have been very pissed at him for putting me in that situation like that. I have no problem with telling a white lie to avoid a situation, but only if it is a good lie. The situation could have been better avoided without lying. Saying "he's not into church" would have been a much better response. Sometimes the best lie, is the truth, as they say.

(November 19, 2011 at 11:58 am)Kayenneh Wrote:

(November 19, 2011 at 11:48 am)Milky Tea Wrote: It would be yes because there are some situations where there is little benefit to inviting confrontation and this is one of them. As your story didn't include you correcting your Grandfather I can't help but think that you also recognised this.

Yes, but this was not a particularly good lie. If she asked "what church do you go to?" that would have made the conversation as badly as it possibly could. I would not have been able to answer that, and at that point I would have been very pissed at him for putting me in that situation like that. I have no problem with telling a white lie to avoid a situation, but only if it is a good lie. The situation could have been better avoided without lying. Saying "he's not into church" would have been a much better response. Sometimes the best lie, is the truth, as they say.

I see your point and agree that in some instances it's better just to be honest because lying results in you ending up looking worse than you would have if you had just been honest from the outset. Whichever way a person decides to go is ultimately a gamble and in this particular case it's paid off for the moment, assuming the women doesn't ask further questions in the future.

(November 19, 2011 at 12:36 pm)ElDinero Wrote: I think life's a little less black and white than that.

Of course it is. It just does not have to be.

(November 19, 2011 at 11:48 am)Milky Tea Wrote: It would be yes because there are some situations where there is little benefit to inviting confrontation and this is one of them. As your story didn't include you correcting your Grandfather I can't help but think that you also recognised this.

AtheistAtheist Wrote:Yes, but this was not a particularly good lie. If she asked "what church do you go to?" that would have made the conversation as badly as it possibly could. I would not have been able to answer that, and at that point I would have been very pissed at him for putting me in that situation like that. I have no problem with telling a white lie to avoid a situation, but only if it is a good lie. The situation could have been better avoided without lying. Saying "he's not into church" would have been a much better response. Sometimes the best lie, is the truth, as they say.

Since no christian has weighed in on this yet I would like to say this, did he really lie or was he trying to protect you from an embarrassing situation, at least what he conceived as embarrassing for you. Even in a christian worldview not everything is black and white. Let's look at it from your position, if your grandfather bumped into you and several of your friends, and he was wearing some clothes that in your opinion were terrible, what would you do? Tell him that his clothing looked terrible knowing your friends would laugh at him or would you cut that possibility off and say hey you look great and save him from a possible embarrassment. Sometimes a perceived lie is not a lie but love in disguise.