(February 3, 2022 at 8:26 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Wasn't this guy here before asking to be paid for proof?

Nope, this is my first time posting on any forum like this. I just had this idea and thought I would share it.

At work.

Hello!

How's the weather in Papa Nurgle's garden?

Cheers.

(February 3, 2022 at 6:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(February 3, 2022 at 6:13 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote: I often hear discussions that attempt to shift the burden of proof. "You can't prove your side either!" 

Here's a conversation I would like to have with someone who argues that all parties have an equal burden of proof.

ME: There is a contract that says you owe me $10,000. It's legally binding so pay up.
THEM: Nonsense. Show it to me.
ME: You can't prove the contract doesn't exist somewhere. In order to verify it doesn't exist, you would have to read every document in the universe.
THEM: I don't care. You have no evidence that it does exist.
ME: Ok, since neither one of us can prove the other wrong, our positions are equal. As an equal compromise you can pay me $5,000. Or are you saying one of our opposing truth claims doesn't carry the same weight? Why is that?

Do you think this dialogue would be an interesting way to illustrate the burden of proof?

A couple of glaring flaws:

-No one claims that all parties have an equal burden of proof.

-It’s a pretty egregious fallacy to demand that someone prove a negative (which is why ‘Prove to me that gods don’t exist’ is a non-starter).

To answer your question, I think it would make for an interest example of how not to argue.

Boru

When I listened to the Atheist Experience show there were numerous callers arguing that neither theists nor atheists could offer any proof and therefore the positions should be treated as equally valid. I think quite a few people do argue for equal burden of proof.

(February 3, 2022 at 8:40 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote:

(February 3, 2022 at 8:26 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Wasn't this guy here before asking to be paid for proof?

Nope, this is my first time posting on any forum like this. I just had this idea and thought I would share it.

Well, it bears a near-identical notion to another post of the same flavor.

That thread went nowhere too.

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(February 3, 2022 at 8:45 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote:

(February 3, 2022 at 6:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: A couple of glaring flaws:

-No one claims that all parties have an equal burden of proof.

-It’s a pretty egregious fallacy to demand that someone prove a negative (which is why ‘Prove to me that gods don’t exist’ is a non-starter).

To answer your question, I think it would make for an interest example of how not to argue.

Boru

When I listened to the Atheist Experience show there were numerous callers arguing that neither theists nor atheists could offer any proof and therefore the positions should be treated as equally valid. I think quite a few people do argue for equal burden of proof.

It seems only one side is making a positive claim. Shrug

(February 3, 2022 at 8:47 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote:

(February 3, 2022 at 8:40 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote: Nope, this is my first time posting on any forum like this. I just had this idea and thought I would share it.

Well, it bears a near-identical notion to another post of the same flavor.

That thread went nowhere too.

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(February 3, 2022 at 8:45 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote: When I listened to the Atheist Experience show there were numerous callers arguing that neither theists nor atheists could offer any proof and therefore the positions should be treated as equally valid. I think quite a few people do argue for equal burden of proof.

It seems only one side is making a positive claim. Shrug

Wait a second, how can my post be near-identical to someone asking to be paid? My post is exploring a hypothetical dialogue intended to show the difference between claims and non-claims. I'm clearly not asking anyone to actually pay for anything.

It is customary to make an introduction post telling us a little about yourself.

Let's start there and start over.

(February 3, 2022 at 8:56 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote:

(February 3, 2022 at 8:47 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: Well, it bears a near-identical notion to another post of the same flavor.

That thread went nowhere too.

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It seems only one side is making a positive claim. Shrug

Wait a second, how can my post be near-identical to someone asking to be paid? My post is exploring a hypothetical dialogue intended to show the difference between claims and non-claims. I'm clearly not asking anyone to actually pay for anything.

I would need to find the post I'm referring to, I could very well be in error.

So many socks pass through here It's tough to tell.

(February 3, 2022 at 8:42 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

Hello!  

How's the weather in Papa Nurgle's garden?  

 Cheers.

Thanks for the friendly welcome. I just made my account and I'm trying to understand the culture of this space. Cthulhu fhtagn!

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(February 3, 2022 at 8:58 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: It is customary to make an introduction post telling us a little about yourself.  

Let's start there and start over.

Ok, thanks for letting me know. 
I'm a technology professional living in Texas. I had some early exposure to Mormonism. I currently don't have religious beliefs but I have a lot of knowledge about cultures, mythology and worldbuilding. I listen to a lot of debates and discussion of beliefs on Youtube. So I came here to see if there are interesting discussions in which to participate. 
Nice to meet you.

(February 3, 2022 at 8:45 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote:

(February 3, 2022 at 6:24 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: A couple of glaring flaws:

-No one claims that all parties have an equal burden of proof.

-It’s a pretty egregious fallacy to demand that someone prove a negative (which is why ‘Prove to me that gods don’t exist’ is a non-starter).

To answer your question, I think it would make for an interest example of how not to argue.

Boru

When I listened to the Atheist Experience show there were numerous callers arguing that neither theists nor atheists could offer any proof and therefore the positions should be treated as equally valid. I think quite a few people do argue for equal burden of proof.

Simply not having any proof to offer isn’t the same as having the burden of proof.

If a positive claim is made about something, such as ‘God exists’, the onus is on the person making the claim to support it.

Atheists, properly speaking, can at most make the negative claim ‘God does not exist’. Asking that this claim be supported is to engage in the black swan fallacy - one does not ordinarily attempt to prove a negative (except perhaps definitionally).

But the position of the great majority of atheists isn’t ‘God does not exist’, but ‘I do not believe that God exists’, a positive claim that can be demonstrated, but likely not proved.

Boru

(February 3, 2022 at 9:05 pm)Nachos_of_Nurgle Wrote:

(February 3, 2022 at 8:42 pm)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

Hello!  

How's the weather in Papa Nurgle's garden?  

 Cheers.

Thanks for the friendly welcome. I just made my account and I'm trying to understand the culture of this space. Cthulhu fhtagn!

---

(February 3, 2022 at 8:58 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: It is customary to make an introduction post telling us a little about yourself.  

Let's start there and start over.

Ok, thanks for letting me know. 
I'm a technology professional living in Texas. I had some early exposure to Mormonism. I currently don't have religious beliefs but I have a lot of knowledge about cultures, mythology and worldbuilding. I listen to a lot of debates and discussion of beliefs on Youtube. So I came here to see if there are interesting discussions in which to participate. 
Nice to meet you.

Welcome, also in TX...currently iced in. Waiting for my Cancun postcard from Ted Cruz and for the thaw to start.