(May 17, 2023 at 4:51 pm)Kingpin Wrote: You find and define your own morality and own hope.  Gives no basis to judge anything else except that it's not your personal preference.

This I think is a fantasy people tell themselves. 

We may claim that we are independent thinkers and islands of rational thought, but we aren't. All of us get our standards from the society we live in. Someone who has given up the standards they learned in Sunday School has adopted new standards, from an alternative set offered by our culture. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as we're aware of it.

When religious standards are no longer in play, then we have to ask where exactly our new standards come from. "Humanism" is a very vague term, with about three different definitions. It sounds good, but it doesn't offer specifics, or allow strong standards for choosing among many different issues. People who call themselves "humanists" may disagree on lots of important things. 

Sad to say, I think that modern US values come largely from capitalism and bourgeois neoliberalism. We are propagandized through every news broadcast, TV show, movie, and pop-culture book to want and value certain things. No one is immune to this. But it's so much the water that we fish swim in that we may be unaware of it.

No one can deny that 'standards' (physical or 'said 'spiritual) can be set/defined/approved... by the most powerful 'rich' groups only (surely, not by any independent individual), in every period of time and in every region (lately a standard can be made to cover even the entire world, as done with the universal political fairy tales made for adults).

On the other hand, no one can deny that the most powerful rich groups around the world (social, sportive, religious and political) have no choice but to protect and support their own interests only while using 'cleverly' their multitudes in one way or another.

In brief, every well-known standard (physical or 'said' spiritual) has to be also justified first by a certain fairy tale made for adults (in the name of science or a god), therefore, it has its own story (its origin, its beneficiaries and its victims).

I personally have no standards to observe in my life, even in my designs (in electronics) since many decades ago. Fortunately, I was born and live among people who are not under the direct control (and watch) of the powerful rich World's Elite yet, as it is the case to most people living in the greatest countries (but this local regional lack of control will not last for too long. Also, me too being old, I won't live till this will happen  ).

(May 17, 2023 at 9:57 pm)Belacqua Wrote: [...]
Sad to say, I think that modern US values come largely from capitalism and bourgeois neoliberalism. We are propagandized through every news broadcast, TV show, movie, and pop-culture book to want and value certain things. No one is immune to this. But it's so much the water that we fish swim in that we may be unaware of it.

If I may interject my thoughts on this? Though I see where you're coming from, I'd say that propaganda only goes so far. For instance think this modern digital age, where we are being conditioned to accept that we will no longer own anything, only licence it, and where it's often right in the T&C's that that they can whip it out from under you at any time for any or no reason. Then if that wasn't enough, further conditioned to accept we'll less and less be able to pay for anything outright either, instead having to rent or subscribe to it. The point being that since these big tech companies are actual or pseudo-monopolies, they can get away with this, but as much as they attempt to propangandize us to not only lump this but also like it, all it does in reality, at least for many people including me, is create resentment at being exploited... ie it does not succeed in making us want and/or value this state of affairs, just realise how powerless we are against it.

(May 18, 2023 at 4:27 am)emjay Wrote: If I may interject my thoughts on this? Though I see where you're coming from, I'd say that propaganda only goes so far. For instance think this modern digital age, where we are being conditioned to accept that we will no longer own anything, only licence it, and where it's often right in the T&C's that that they can whip it out from under you at any time for any or no reason. Then if that wasn't enough, further conditioned to accept we'll less and less be able to pay for anything outright either, instead having to rent or subscribe to it. The point being that since these big tech companies are actual or pseudo-monopolies, they can get away with this, but as much as they attempt to propangandize us to not only lump this but also like it, all it does in reality, at least for many people including me, is create resentment at being exploited... ie it does not succeed in making us want and/or value this state of affairs, just realise how powerless we are against it.

Well, clearly the propagandists have to work harder on you! 

To some extent it means their methods of persuasion have failed, but I suppose there are also cases where they don't have to bother. As you say, if we have no choice but to take what they're serving, then they don't care whether we like it or not. 

You make a good point about people feeling powerless. One of the things that gets propagandized is the illusion that we have any power at all, government-wise. Your vote counts!!! Except it doesn't. 

I think where the propaganda is really effective is when it sets acceptable limits on our choices, and then markets all the available choices. So for example the ways in which a person can rebel from mainstream normie society are largely choices in what you buy. A person who buys a leather jacket and rides a Harley-Davidson is a rebellious individual not bound by societal norms. And he knows that's true because it's been marketed to him so successfully. He rebels in a way that's predetermined by advertising. 

A normie shops at Forever 21, a rebellious individual who thumbs her nose at authority shops at Hot Topic. Same amount of money in the same mall; different semiotic expressions. (Are these stores still in business? They were the last time I was in a mall.) Actually thinking outside the box is hard. 

An actual rebel who actually evaded societal persuasion would be stomped on, and not only by the police. Most of the scolding for social norms comes from peers. People really like to scold. 

I have a good friend here in Japan who moved to California for a few years. She was excited thinking about the chance to live freely in America and work on her art away from Japanese peer pressure. Pretty much as soon as she got to the US her home owners' association told her she wasn't allowed to display her sculpture on her own front porch. Property values!

Society does this, society does that. Okay, but what are you trying to say? Is that, like..wrong or something?

Contemporary us moral values come from subjectivism, relativism, and nihilism. This is at odds with contemporary moral philosophy, which is predominantly realist. The relationships and expressions are deeper than forever 21 or hot topic. If this is the maximin depth that a person has plumbed in the contemporary moral field, the problem isn't the field, rather, it's the laziness of the diver. Rejection like this...is the moral version of leather jackets. Anticapitalism is also a brand.

(May 18, 2023 at 5:33 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(May 18, 2023 at 4:27 am)emjay Wrote: If I may interject my thoughts on this? Though I see where you're coming from, I'd say that propaganda only goes so far. For instance think this modern digital age, where we are being conditioned to accept that we will no longer own anything, only licence it, and where it's often right in the T&C's that that they can whip it out from under you at any time for any or no reason. Then if that wasn't enough, further conditioned to accept we'll less and less be able to pay for anything outright either, instead having to rent or subscribe to it. The point being that since these big tech companies are actual or pseudo-monopolies, they can get away with this, but as much as they attempt to propangandize us to not only lump this but also like it, all it does in reality, at least for many people including me, is create resentment at being exploited... ie it does not succeed in making us want and/or value this state of affairs, just realise how powerless we are against it.

Well, clearly the propagandists have to work harder on you!

I'm not quite sure what tone to read this in   ...I'm not saying I think I'm anything special; I think a lot of people feel this way.

Quote:[...]
I think where the propaganda is really effective is when it sets acceptable limits on our choices, and then markets all the available choices. So for example the ways in which a person can rebel from mainstream normie society are largely choices in what you buy. A person who buys a leather jacket and rides a Harley-Davidson is a rebellious individual not bound by societal norms. And he knows that's true because it's been marketed to him so successfully. He rebels in a way that's predetermined by advertising. 

A normie shops at Forever 21, a rebellious individual who thumbs her nose at authority shops at Hot Topic. Same amount of money in the same mall; different semiotic expressions. (Are these stores still in business? They were the last time I was in a mall.) Actually thinking outside the box is hard. 

An actual rebel who actually evaded societal persuasion would be stomped on, and not only by the police. Most of the scolding for social norms comes from peers. People really like to scold. 

I have a good friend here in Japan who moved to California for a few years. She was excited thinking about the chance to live freely in America and work on her art away from Japanese peer pressure. Pretty much as soon as she got to the US her home owners' association told her she wasn't allowed to display her sculpture on her own front porch. Property values!

I see what you're saying, and it's worse when they make it too obvious that's what they're doing. Like I bought this beard oil and it came with all this messaging 'join the revolution!' etc and I was thinking, 'it's beard oil for fuck's sake, what do you take me for?'. Basically any time they overplay their hand and make it too obvious what they're trying to do, it becomes laughable, but yeah, I agree it's subtle as well and therefore more insidious.

Well, there's two kinds of rebel messaging. One is over the top absurdism. It's meant to be off and make you laugh. It sticks with you. The other is the breathless kind that means it. Like maga merch. Imma go out on a limb and assume that beard oil merchants aren't recruiting.

(May 18, 2023 at 4:27 am)emjay Wrote:

(May 17, 2023 at 9:57 pm)Belacqua Wrote: [...]
Sad to say, I think that modern US values come largely from capitalism and bourgeois neoliberalism. We are propagandized through every news broadcast, TV show, movie, and pop-culture book to want and value certain things. No one is immune to this. But it's so much the water that we fish swim in that we may be unaware of it.

If I may interject my thoughts on this? Though I see where you're coming from, I'd say that propaganda only goes so far. For instance think this modern digital age, where we are being conditioned to accept that we will no longer own anything, only licence it, and where it's often right in the T&C's that that they can whip it out from under you at any time for any or no reason. Then if that wasn't enough, further conditioned to accept we'll less and less be able to pay for anything outright either, instead having to rent or subscribe to it. The point being that since these big tech companies are actual or pseudo-monopolies, they can get away with this, but as much as they attempt to propangandize us to not only lump this but also like it, all it does in reality, at least for many people including me, is create resentment at being exploited... ie it does not succeed in making us want and/or value this state of affairs, just realise how powerless we are against it.

Thank you.
You clearly and cleverly described one of the important aspects of the modern slavery.

(May 18, 2023 at 5:59 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Society does this, society does that.  Okay, but what are you trying to say?  Is that, like..wrong or something?

Contemporary us moral values come from subjectivism, relativism, and nihilism.  This is at odds with contemporary moral philosophy, which is predominantly realist.  The relationships and expressions are deeper than forever 21 or hot topic.  If this is the maximin depth that a person has plumbed in the contemporary moral field, the problem isn't the field, rather, it's the laziness of the diver.  Rejection like this...is the moral version of leather jackets.  Anticapitalism is also a brand.

To be clear, I'm not making any specific claims about morality in my response to Bel, just wanted to share my perspective on a particular aspect he brought up. I admit my views on morality aren't hugely fleshed out, I put it largely down to empathy but I know philosophically speaking there's much more to it than that.

I'll be going to a business meeting today with my boss and a banker. I'll be wearing jeans...definitely. Probably a T-shirt, either a tie dyed shirt from my cousin's coaching business or a shirt from the college my granddaughter plans to attend. Then there will either be a pair of tie dyed Vans type shoes or my patchwork Chucks. What does that say about this nearly 66 year old? It says I wear what I like and what I feel comfortable in. My anti-rebellion in this is that most of my tattoos will be covered.