(October 4, 2023 at 10:46 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(October 4, 2023 at 9:32 pm)Fireball Wrote: looking at the GOP, it's more like disorganized crime.

Too bad the GOP is taking too long to get to “throw each other off of bridges wearing cement shoes” stage

"...we all chipped in for a bag of cement..."- Paul McCartney &Wings, "Junior's Farm"

They like the Russians so much, maybe defenestration is in some of their futures?

(October 4, 2023 at 9:47 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(October 4, 2023 at 8:12 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: That won't save you, or him. Abdication rarely seizes power. Suicide rarely grants life. If you choose not to decide, you've still made a choice.

-and voting wont save you.  You don't choose Thump.  You have choice theater by design - because the ruling class just doesn't trust you.  Americans have overwhelmingly voted blue for decades and the effect of that was the government getting redder and redder.

Any rate, it's not that I haven't decided something.  I have.  I've decided that both parties are a raging dumpster fire in their own unique ways and that neither of them compels -me- to give my vote..to them.  Which..I mean, is my right..right?  Either party, or a new party as yet unknown..could..at any time, win my confidence.  The quality of the salesforce for the reds and blues is not my problem.  I don't buy busted cars either.

Resignation rarely gets you a win. Sure, it's your right to sign out, and what of it?

Let me know how that works out for you.

So tedious. Every four years I hear this same stuff, but every day in the middle of those four years the same people notice that their votes meant exactly jack shit.

As for how I like to help, it's going well. That's probably why I think that, if you want change, you have to stop pretending that you can vote for it, and actually be that change yourself.

(October 5, 2023 at 1:09 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: So tedious.  Every four years I hear this same stuff, but every day in the middle of those four years the same people notice that their votes meant exactly jack shit.

As for how I like to help, it's going well.  That's probably why I think that, if you want change, you have to stop pretending that you can vote for it, and actually be that change yourself.

Odd ... two non-voters posting in a thread explicitly about an election. That's like two vegetarians debating the virtues of beef vs pork.

(October 5, 2023 at 1:09 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: So tedious.  Every four years I hear this same stuff, but every day in the middle of those four years the same people notice that their votes meant exactly jack shit.

As for how I like to help, it's going well.  That's probably why I think that, if you want change, you have to stop pretending that you can vote for it, and actually be that change yourself.

I think you would find it worse if every four years it was significantly different. Some of those anniversaries would be a real bitch. Does January 6th ring a bell? Democracies move slowly. To expect them to change at a pace that is meaningfully significant over such a short span is to misunderstand both change and the nature of democracy.

(October 5, 2023 at 8:14 am)Angrboda Wrote: I think you would find it worse if every four years it was significantly different.  Some of those anniversaries would be a real bitch.  Does January 6th ring a bell?  Democracies move slowly.  To expect them to change at a pace that is meaningfully significant over such a short span is to misunderstand both change and the nature of democracy.

Our system has changed plenty over the span of my politically aware life.  Trouble is, it's been for the worse.  The political equivalent, I suppose, of the whole speed of a lie thing.  

It makes absolutely no sense, imo, to acknowledge things like extreme gerrymandering, the corporate takeover of policy by way of unlimited speechbux, bipartisan institutional corruption, and the abandonment of the constituency at the end of campaigning season while simultaneously insisting that people whose votes literally do not matter are the problem with our government and why bad shit keeps happening.  That's not true, and it's an especially laughable claim that the reason that the reds keep winning is that the blues don't get enough votes...on the tacit assumption that I would even vote blue.....which is a weird one, for all the times I mention that I'm not a dem.  The blues have been getting more votes than the reds for decades, I'll just keep reminding everyone of this.  It's not a little, it's a lot, and for a long time....and this is the result.  

Plenty of people seem to think that it's odd for a non voter to feel any sort of way about this..but, obviously, I wish it were different.  I'm not an apathetic non voter.  Non cooperation is the final form of protest, when action fails or simply cannot succeed.  No one wants to buy into every little white lie we tell ourselves like I do - I just can't, and likewise I can't blame people for shit I know they have no hand in even if I wish there really were someone to blame.  Jan6 was rough, but validating.  People have been calling me a nut (here and elsewhere) for years for mentioning that christian white supremacists were engaged in an increasingly successful takeover of government and that the reds were being activated like fucking insurgents.  I still think that the real tragedy of the day is that they weren't mown down.  We put up with it, we allowed it, we seemed to believe it was so clownish it would burn itself out, and we ostracized people who knew what it was and that it wouldn't.  We couldn't have set ourselves up for jan6 better than we did.  Even the people there that day and charged with protecting the capital did this in that moment.     

From my perspective, so long as we're willing to accept voting as a choice between lesser evils we, as voters, cannot complain about the evil we electively effect.   We wanted it, we voted for it, we accepted that framing.  It's not even on the politicians for going along with it.  That didn't happen because of non voters, and it will absolutely not get better until we reject it.  I know, I know, the fear is that if we reject that framing by refusing to be complicit The Other Guy will win.  Firstly, I literally am that other guy, or at least I was in a saner iteration of government..and, secondly, the other other guy is going to take advantage regardless and all they need to do that is the appearance of legitimacy through cooperation in a sham process.

I vote and have since I was old enough. Sadly, I don't feel as though my vote counts for much. I still do it though. I have missed some primaries but have stood in line for hours at times for other votes.

Husband has never voted and I assume he never will.

So unlike my mom, who said she voted only to cancel out dad's vote, I am the only vote for this house.

Similar situation here. The Wife and I had politics that cancelled each other out. I crossed the line and voted for obama the first time, not because I hoped or believed, but because it was better than the alternatives™. Haven't voted since, what with how he turned out to be a drone warlord and the deporter in chief. That's -my- experience with the supposed lesser of two evils.

I know, I know, "but the other guys wouldn't let him do anything!" Oh yeah, stunning endorsement of the candidate and of the process. Shoot it directly into my veins. Vote for us, even when we win we can't do anything because the losers wont let us. Any other job you'd get immediately shitcanned for even uttering the words. It's a truly bipartisan obsession for our officials, blaming the other guys for their own consistent ineffectuality. All snark aside, there's your winning ticket, whoever picks it up. Lean into that, it'll even peel off the magats and progressives together.

(October 5, 2023 at 10:13 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(October 5, 2023 at 8:14 am)Angrboda Wrote: I think you would find it worse if every four years it was significantly different.  Some of those anniversaries would be a real bitch.  Does January 6th ring a bell?  Democracies move slowly.  To expect them to change at a pace that is meaningfully significant over such a short span is to misunderstand both change and the nature of democracy.

Our system has changed plenty over the span of my politically aware life.  Trouble is, it's been for the worse.  The political equivalent, I suppose, of the whole speed of a lie thing.  

It makes absolutely no sense, imo, to acknowledge things like extreme gerrymandering, the corporate takeover of policy by way of unlimited speechbux, bipartisan institutional corruption, and the abandonment of the constituency at the end of campaigning season while simultaneously insisting that people whose votes literally do not matter are the problem with our government and why bad shit keeps happening.  That's not true, and it's an especially laughable claim that the reason that the reds keep winning is that the blues don't get enough votes...on the tacit assumption that I would even vote blue.....which is a weird one, for all the times I mention that I'm not a dem.  The blues have been getting more votes than the reds for decades, I'll just keep reminding everyone of this.  It's not a little, it's a lot, and for a long time....and this is the result.  

Plenty of people seem to think that it's odd for a non voter to feel any sort of way about this..but, obviously, I wish it were different.  I'm not an apathetic non voter.  Non cooperation is the final form of protest, when action fails or simply cannot succeed.  No one wants to buy into every little white lie we tell ourselves like I do - I just can't, and likewise I can't blame people for shit I know they have no hand in even if I wish there really were someone to blame.  Jan6 was rough, but validating.  People have been calling me a nut (here and elsewhere) for years for mentioning that christian white supremacists were engaged in an increasingly successful takeover of government and that the reds were being activated like fucking insurgents.  I still think that the real tragedy of the day is that they weren't mown down.  We put up with it, we allowed it, we seemed to believe it was so clownish it would burn itself out, and we ostracized people who knew what it was and that it wouldn't.  We couldn't have set ourselves up for jan6 better than we did.  Even the people there that day and charged with protecting the capital did this in that moment.     

From my perspective, so long as we're willing to accept voting as a choice between lesser evils we, as voters, cannot complain about the evil we electively effect.   We wanted it, we voted for it, we accepted that framing.  It's not even on the politicians for going along with it.  That didn't happen because of non voters, and it will absolutely not get better until we reject it.  I know, I know, the fear is that if we reject that framing by refusing to be complicit The Other Guy will win.  Firstly, I literally am that other guy, or at least I was in a saner iteration of government..and, secondly, the other other guy is going to take advantage regardless and all they need to do that is the appearance of legitimacy through cooperation in a sham process.

1) I'm not blaming voters for the ills of the country. I'm blaming those who don't take action to try and effect change.

2) False equivalence is false. One "Guy" wants to strip us of rights, as you may (or may not) have noticed. That the "Other Guy" also does crooked shit at times in no way makes them equal, just as a shoplifter is not as bad as a murderer.

3) You say you've seen plenty of change even over your own lifetime. What have you done to try and effect it? Refuse to vote? Let me know how that works out for you.

In a phrase, you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the better.

I get your number one, and I think it's wholly wrong. If you want someone to blame for the political ills of the country, perhaps you should blame the people who've voted for it? Whether they conceptualize it as voting for the lessers or because they wanted the thing itself - this is the result - and ofc it is, it was always going to be. When you vote for the lesser of two evils the only possible outcome is evil.

Your two is meh. Both parties would like to strip us of rights, and prevent us from having meaningful protections..because they don't work for us. They both work for their corporate donors out of campaign necessity. I disagree with this no matter who's doing it, as I've probably made clear over my time here. This is not a false equivalence, it's a fact that even the reps themselves acknowledge. As I mentioned, they're both garbage -in their own unique ways-. Think about the absurdity of this, though, you're giving me shit for not voting for politicians whose politics I disagree with, and tossing out slogans that pretty clearly don't apply to my own objections to the candidates and parties on offer.

I haven't done -anything- to effect the changes I was referring to - that's my entire point. If you want to point the finger you'll have to point elsewhere. I've been busy trying to do nice shit that I can accomplish without appealing to the chief political officers of the corporate fiefdoms of america. From this end, it's like watching people stuck in an abusive relationship. You keep thinking that if you just did better he'd stop beating the shit out of you. The whole bit seems like that. We're being told we have to do better for our [insert persuasion here] reps instead of them having to do better for us. You all have moments of clarity in between elections where you realize that this is what it is, but come campaigning season you're in love again and his bad behavior is all someone else's fault. Especially, apparently, the people who have no interest in such a relationship.

If we're at a point where insisting on better is the enemy of better, we should not expect any better. On a purely practical note...if you want more independents, undecideds, and previous non voters to climb in your tent, perhaps you shouldn't blame them for your own parties (and the other parties) cockups? Just fucking own it, and do better? Or is that also the enemy of the better?