(March 11, 2012 at 12:58 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: When I was a theist

Broadly speaking you still are. Theists and deists both share the belief that at least one deity exists. The rest is arbitrary nonsense from my position.

Quote:I would take it as a test.

Why would you once believe any immoral command is a test? And why would god put you to the test in the first instance? What could he possibly hope to gain from it, other than putting you through hell for his own amusement that is?

Quote:There would be the "inner messenger" telling me not do it, which is God's command, and then "words", but I think the inner messenger is the light of God and speaks of God's will in more binding way..so it has more authority then "words".

What does 'inner messenger' and 'light of god' even mean? Something or someone inside you? What? Answers in English please.

(March 11, 2012 at 1:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The inner messenger of God tells us not to rape, period.

What the hell is an inner messenger!?

(March 11, 2012 at 4:00 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: Why would you once believe any immoral command is a test? And why would god put you to the test in the first instance? What could he possibly hope to gain from it, other than putting you through hell for his own amusement that is?

I don't think God ever would tell us to do such a thing, but, in the case he did, I think it would more logical to assume he is testing us then that he actually wants us to do that.

I don't think God would ever do such a thing, but the question was asking what would you do if you were told by God to do that.

You can get morality cheaper from Amazon.

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(March 11, 2012 at 3:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well perhaps do more reflection, more thinking, and you will realize there is a inner messenger. Ofcourse if you want to reason everything against that there is one, you could. I'm not going to argue.

Also perhaps you been so use to thinking in a non-metaphysical way, no matter how manifest a metaphysical messenger in the soul is, you will down play it.

Perhaps just as religious people have a bias so do Atheists.

All I'm stating is that I believe reflection over the self will detect an inner messenger of God. I think you will see, that authority is not simply your's but something beyond and even absolute and ultimately high.

To me, it isn't so much whether you believe in an inner messenger so much as how much authority it has over you. Are you allowed to question your inner messenger? (Does it respond?) Can you refuse it? Should you? If it steers you wrong, who is accountable for the damage you do?

Nothing wrong with being open to intuition and inspiration, but how high is the pedestal you place it on?

(March 11, 2012 at 4:30 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't think God ever would tell us to do such a thing, but, in the case he did, I think it would more logical to assume he is testing us then that he actually wants us to do that.

I don't think God would ever do such a thing, but the question was asking what would you do if you were told by God to do that.

I would reintroduce him to the more colourful side of my vocabulary.

What this really seems to say, is that you are willing to pick and choose what God commands to be moral therefore you have a sense of morality which is more pre-eminent than instructions from this creator.

If I ever turn to God, it will be on the understanding that the vast majority of believers are there to TEST ME.

EDIT: That was not intended as a direct dig at you thou.

Quote:I think it would more logical to assume he is testing us then that he actually wants us to do that.

Not logical at all. If god is all knowing, the test will be pointless. He'd already knows the results.

My conclusion if I believed that a god existed and gave such a command is that he is at least malevolent. Such a command is irrational and harmful. I will say no.
If someone ordered you to hurt or kill, would you? I wouldn't. Not without a very good reason to.

You can question if your actually know what the inner messenger tells you instead of thinking it tells you something but rather your assumption is based on other then it, but when it tells you something in clear manner, then you know it to be true.

I will give you an example. Apostacy, killing apostate in Islam? On what authority can someone condemn it as wrong? By just an opinion and having a strong opinion? Ok suppose you are right that it shouldn't be done, why should you be angry at people doing it and allowing it? You at the end will have to admit, it's because they have something inside them telling them it's absolutely wrong. They suppress that knowledge and instead of follow their scholars.

You guys on forums always show disgust at people doing certain things. What makes you see that as disgusting and abdoninable? If at the end, you just say you feel that way, it has no real basis.

At the end, people feel their is beauty and ugliness in moral actions, their is right and wrong, and that when a human does wrong, it's due to ignoring something that is universal.

I'm saying also if you look at how you feel over it, at the end, it can't be just said, yeah that's emotions programmed by evolution..that has no authority of why you should strongly feel that way...

at the end, whether we are right or wrong about things...we all feel there is correct view that is enforced upon humans that when they completely go against some of the stronger commands of the universal mandate, we feel disgust at it...

I'm saying if you look at the authority of that commander/messenger/authority, you will see it's not just chemicals making a feeling, it's metaphysical, eternally based, and is of ultimate authority because it's link to the ultimate authority...it's authority is to absolute degree that we judge people upon it.

Sure we can confuse a lot of wrong thoughts with this messenger telling us, but this is because we are going with the flow, and not reflecting properly. There is a way out of the confusion and that is to listen more and more to the divine instinct.

I think at the end if you say no such thing exists, then you are in no position to feel disgusted at others doing things, because they are just acting to what they feel they should do after all. There is nothing then screwed up, because what are they screwed up from? You see...we all believe this universal mandate...we just need to recognize it's metaphysical basis which is God. So it's not like it's something that is unique to me and making me special.


Most people do recognize that, and believe in God.

No such thing as this 'commander/messenger'. Restrictions of our actions is based on the make up of our brain functions. Rats have it, elephants, dolphins, primates....

Also in our civilisation it is through corporation that we are at our strongest. If we all turned on each other, we'd wipe ourselves out. Social animals by nature work together. That's how they survive. Has nothing to do with some man made 'god' or 'spirit. Just nature. Chemical reactions in the brain. We invent rules to allow a sense of order and productivity. Those who do harm on others and without feeling much regret or guilt tend to have a disorder. Once again, connected to chemicals within the brain. Not hard to understand.

(March 11, 2012 at 2:58 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Reflection over thoughts and self.

Isn't it far more likely that whatever you get as the product of reflection over your thoughts and your self is the product of, oh, IDK, yourself? Just throwing that out there. Completely off the wall, I know. You've been arguing for personal and subjective morality every time you've posted (even though you clearly intended to argue for the opposite). Why you insist on calling this god is beyond me.

(March 11, 2012 at 4:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: at the end, whether we are right or wrong about things...we all feel there is correct view that is enforced upon humans that when they completely go against some of the stronger commands of the universal mandate, we feel disgust at it...

I'm saying if you look at the authority of that commander/messenger/authority, you will see it's not just chemicals making a feeling, it's metaphysical, eternally based, and is of ultimate authority because it's link to the ultimate authority...it's authority is to absolute degree that we judge people upon it.

Sure we can confuse a lot of wrong thoughts with this messenger telling us, but this is because we are going with the flow, and not reflecting properly. There is a way out of the confusion and that is to listen more and more to the divine instinct.

I think at the end if you say no such thing exists, then you are in no position to feel disgusted at others doing things, because they are just acting to what they feel they should do after all. There is nothing then screwed up, because what are they screwed up from? You see...we all believe this universal mandate...we just need to recognize it's metaphysical basis which is God. So it's not like it's something that is unique to me and making me special.

Okay now you are just talking crazy. You seem to be flirting with sanity but here you are going the wrong direction.

(March 11, 2012 at 4:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Most people do recognize that, and believe in God.

Like most right thinking people I wouldn't really care how that vote came out int erms of deciding what I believe. If it gives you comfort there must be some reason you need it (i.e., it's nuts).

He gets close, makes what must be a profound statement of realization for someone with firmly held beliefs (whatever they may be), and then something deep-seated kicks in and he feels the need to regurgitate dogma, in bold lettering.

Horseshoes and hand grenades.