It is better to simply keep the terms agnostic and atheist completely separate as they refer to two different questions. Agnostics are not necessarily weak atheists. One can be both a theist and agnostic, or atheist and agnostic.

The agnostic atheist is the one often referred to as a weak or soft atheist. A weak atheist has nothing to offer regarding why you should or shouldn't believe in gods, just that he has checked around the old psyche but hasn't found any operating in him. He isn't inclined to justify his lack of belief and mostly just wonders what all the fuss is about. The agnostic theist is that very rare creature who accepts a belief in god(s) on faith alone, without deluding himself that this constitutes knowledge.

Obviously one can also be gnostic in their belief in god(s) or equally certain that no gods exist. The gnostic atheist is what we would call a strong or hard atheist. This is the guy who will argue that gods flat out do not exist and he's pretty sure he's got the arguments to convince you (if you're not, like, totally stupid). I'm not sure what to call the gnostic theist .. a fundamentalist? (We both know some of the choicer descriptions one hears around here for such people.)

Other parameters which can inform ones label if you don't have belief in gods pertain to how little of a shit you give about the question, apatheist, and how much of an issue it is for you that the term "god" is so poorly defined, "ignosticist".

If you do have belief in gods you might prefer to call yourself a deist if you're not so sure a creator being really gives a shit how it all plays out. You might also call yourself a polytheist if you're very permissive in recognizing the divine in everything. Or you might be "woo woo" if you tend to identify with every spiritual movement you ever heard of.

By these definitions, I am a weak atheist. I won't defend the lack of belief in gods (which I don't find operating in my psyche) and I'm unaware of any good arguments for or against the existence of gods. Really I probably find more meaning and value in my agnosticism than I do my atheism. I'm ignostic but I don't use it as a conversation stopper (though perhaps I should). I still find the whole subject somewhat interesting in an anthropological sort of way, so I'm not as apatheist as some. Still I do not find the question of whether gods do or do not exist as deserving my urgent attention. (Whatever.)

(July 11, 2012 at 8:12 pm)whateverist Wrote: It is better to simply keep the terms agnostic and atheist completely separate as they refer to two different questions. Agnostics are not necessarily weak atheists. One can be both a theist and agnostic, or atheist and agnostic.

The agnostic atheist is the one often referred to as a weak or soft atheist. A weak atheist has nothing to offer regarding why you should or shouldn't believe in gods, just that he has checked around the old psyche but hasn't found any operating in him. He isn't inclined to justify his lack of belief and mostly just wonders what all the fuss is about. The agnostic theist is that very rare creature who accepts a belief in god(s) on faith alone, without deluding himself that this constitutes knowledge.

Obviously one can also be gnostic in their belief in god(s) or equally certain that no gods exist. The gnostic atheist is what we would call a strong or hard atheist. This is the guy who will argue that gods flat out do not exist and he's pretty sure he's got the arguments to convince you (if you're not, like, totally stupid). I'm not sure what to call the gnostic theist .. a fundamentalist? (We both know some of the choicer descriptions one hears around here for such people.)

Other parameters which can inform ones label if you don't have belief in gods pertain to how little of a shit you give about the question, apatheist, and how much of an issue it is for you that the term "god" is so poorly defined, "ignosticist".

If you do have belief in gods you might prefer to call yourself a deist if you're not so sure a creator being really gives a shit how it all plays out. You might also call yourself a polytheist if you're very permissive in recognizing the divine in everything. Or you might be "woo woo" if you tend to identify with every spiritual movement you ever heard of.

By these definitions, I am a weak atheist. I won't defend the lack of belief in gods (which I don't find operating in my psyche) and I'm unaware of any good arguments for or against the existence of gods. Really I probably find more meaning and value in my agnosticism than I do my atheism. I'm ignostic but I don't use it as a conversation stopper (though perhaps I should). I still find the whole subject somewhat interesting in an anthropological sort of way, so I'm not as apatheist as some. Still I do not find the question of whether gods do or do not exist at all compelling. (Whatever.)

I agree with all that you said except that an agnostic atheist can be of the strong category as well, just as long as he doesn't claim to know, because there can also be gnostic atheism, which is not the same as strong atheism, but is necessarily strong atheism.

A weak atheist is necessarily agnostic.

But this categorization all occurs because people are using atheism and agnosticism in different ways.

But it's more accurate.

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I can write the categories as follows.

Gnostic Atheists.
Agnostic Strong Atheists.
Soft Atheists.

As for a believer

Gnostic Theist.
Agnostic Theist.

(July 11, 2012 at 7:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 7:45 pm)jonb Wrote: Do you believe there is no God?

A weak Atheist would say no,

this leaves two possibilities:

He believes God exists.
He doesn't believe God exists but doesn't believe he doesn't.

Obviously, being an Atheist, if you answer, the 2nd would be what is assumed. That is the category weak/negative atheism, which commonly is referred to as agnosticism.

You're making several mistakes that are typical of theists.

There is no mental state between belief and non-belief. Either one has an active belief or they do not have belief.

And you think that if one doesn't believe in the existence of a god, then they believe that a god doesn't exist. But you are missing another option, not having any belief whatsoever.

Atheism is not another belief, in the exact same way that asymmetry is not another form of symmetry.

(July 11, 2012 at 8:37 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: But you are missing another option, not having any belief whatsoever.

Which was stated:

He doesn't believe God exists but doesn't believe he doesn't.

(July 11, 2012 at 8:37 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 7:51 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: this leaves two possibilities:

He believes God exists.
He doesn't believe God exists but doesn't believe he doesn't.

Obviously, being an Atheist, if you answer, the 2nd would be what is assumed. That is the category weak/negative atheism, which commonly is referred to as agnosticism.

You're making several mistakes that are typical of theists.

There is no mental state between belief and non-belief. Either one has an active belief or they do not have belief.

And you think that if one doesn't believe in the existence of a god, then they believe that a god doesn't exist. But you are missing another option, not having any belief whatsoever.

Atheism is not another belief, in the exact same way that asymmetry is not another form of symmetry.

They ignored me on page 7 If you do better, I might take it personally

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(July 11, 2012 at 8:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 8:37 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: But you are missing another option, not having any belief whatsoever.

Which was stated:

He doesn't believe God exists but doesn't believe he doesn't.

Doesn't believe he doesn't?

(July 11, 2012 at 8:41 pm)jonb Wrote: Doesn't believe he doesn't?

Yeah if you are without belief with regards to God (commonly referred to as "Agnosticism" but now has be reclassified as "Soft/Weak Atheism")...

1) You don't believe he exists.
2) You don't believe he doesn't exist.

It's very simple.

(July 11, 2012 at 8:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 8:41 pm)jonb Wrote: Doesn't believe he doesn't?

Yeah if you are without belief with regards to God (commonly referred to as "Agnosticism" but now has be reclassified as "Soft/Weak Atheism")...

1) You don't believe he exists.
2) You don't believe he doesn't exist.

It's very simple.

No. Agnosticism is the lack of knowledge. It doesn't even have to be referring to the question of the existence of gods.

(July 11, 2012 at 8:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 8:37 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: But you are missing another option, not having any belief whatsoever.

Which was stated:

He doesn't believe God exists but doesn't believe he doesn't.

If you meant the same thing that I said, you did it in a very ambiguous and flawed way.

A much better way to say it would be, 'he has no beliefs in the existence of gods'.

On a side note, you may want to look up the word 'deist', because I do not think this word means what you think it means.

(July 11, 2012 at 8:48 pm)Paul the Human Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 8:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Yeah if you are without belief with regards to God (commonly referred to as "Agnosticism" but now has be reclassified as "Soft/Weak Atheism")...

1) You don't believe he exists.
2) You don't believe he doesn't exist.

It's very simple.

No. Agnosticism is the lack of knowledge. It doesn't even have to be referring to the question of the existence of gods.

Again this is war of semantics. Commonly, people referred to the position as being agnostic. Now there is a war going on about the usage of atheism and agnosticism.

It's used in both ways, whether you acknowledge it or not. You can't just say a word means what I want it to mean only but it's used in a way ( and has been used for a long time) that opposes your desire of how the word is to be used.

(July 11, 2012 at 8:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Yeah if you are without belief with regards to God (commonly referred to as "Agnosticism" but now has be reclassified as "Soft/Weak Atheism")...

1) You don't believe he exists.
2) You don't believe he doesn't exist.

It's very simple.

You are very wrong.

Agnostic - the position that the existence of gods is unknown, and quite possibly unknowable.

Atheism - the disbelief that gods exist.

Please tell us you understand the difference between the words ' knowledge' and 'belief'....