(August 8, 2012 at 1:30 am)Lion IRC Wrote: One sees a lot of atheists talking about how God never answers prayers.

Why is Madeleine McCann still missing (and most likely dead)?

There's no need to go through the whole case atom by atom, everything you'd want to know is available online. The salient point for this purpose is the fact that Madeleine's parents not only spent a great deal of time visiting mass prayer rallies, the most positive spin of which is that doing so kept the case in the public eye - not only that, but they even had an audience with the Pope a.k.a. God's lieutenant on Earth. All with the aim of petitioning The Almighty™ for little Madeleine's safe return.

So I repeat: why is she still missing?

Quote:The narritive is complete in the orginal Hebrew

And, because I will never let you get away with such fucking horseshit, Drippy, you have no evidence of an "original Hebrew" text. The earliest version for which we have evidence is in Greek.

Learn to deal with reality. You'll be mentally more healthy in the long run.

(August 8, 2012 at 4:31 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The narritive is complete in the orginal Hebrew

And, because I will never let you get away with such fucking horseshit, Drippy, you have no evidence of an "original Hebrew" text. The earliest version for which we have evidence is in Greek.

Learn to deal with reality. You'll be mentally more healthy in the long run.

Again not true we have it in the Dead sea scrolls. How many times must we do this?

---

(August 8, 2012 at 1:22 am)Skepsis Wrote: I believe that I can make a case against the justice of your God.
Hell is a pit of fire, in effect. Wicked fire, lake of fire, burning, gnashing of teeth, etc.

Hell is an expansive place not all of it is described as 'fire.'

Quote:Everything anyone ever does is part of God's plan.

No Everything we do is against God's expressed will or law. Even so, this is still apart of His plan. (hence the tree in the garden to the sacerfice of Christ.)

Quote:Sin was part of his plan, as was hell.

yes

Quote: However, the fact that hell coexists with an "ultimate plan" means that God is unjust. Why?
The ultimate plan, as we can see from observing the world around us, involves sending people to hell for disbelief. A just God wouldn't set up an ultimate plan where he essentially "programmed" unbelievers to reject him, then send this group to hell. That is the pinnacle of injustice.

I could argue this point by saying your understanding of what you have described is off, and then redefine everything according to scripture. But, this is not the underlying problem. That problem centers around the fact you feel you can judge God with what you understand to be 'fair.' An understanding based on popular morality. Until you address this nothing I can say will ever matter for you value what your soceity values as righteousness over that of God.

Quote:Sin was part of his "program".

what was the other part? Redemption for all who seek it.

Quote:But... there is no choice. You said so yourself. If we don't believe it is part of his plan. Why not reveal himself? There would still be those that reject him.

The choice is redemption. Something I have illustrated, by you own admission. you refuse to accept it, even though you were condition to sin as I was. I accepted redemption, you refused it. I chose to accept, you chose to reject. do you See the Choice now?!?!

Quote:Actually, it's just the opposite. If everything is part of God's plan, then there are people "programmed" to accept and deny his existence. We can't accept or refuse. We are all simply following his plan.

One can not except on his own but one can ask God to help him accept what his heart rejects. (I did this very thing)

Quote:

Quote:I am NOT formulating a question against the nature of your God. I'll make this very, very clear to you so it doesn't escape even you:
If the God of your bible purportedly acted on something physical, that is, committed to a course of action that had an effect on the physical world, then he just moved from "untestable bible's domain" to "testable, physical domain". Overlapping magisteria.
Therefore, it isn't beyond my authority to ask for evidence beyond that of the Bible to prove an extra-biblical event.

(August 7, 2012 at 11:08 pm)Drich Wrote: NOT if it is the same bible who recorded the very event being questioned.

Actually, I am justified in asking for evidence beyond the Bible if the event described supposedly happened in reality. Get it into your head that I am not questioning something that can only be commentated on by the bible, because the Bible has passed the border into the real world and is thus testable/verifiable.
It puts it well with in the same domain, in which God and the events surrounding His actions concerning His expressed will (pre law) have been established in the first place.

I am not questioning whether or not your bible says it happened. I am questioning whether it happened or not. Just because the actions are taken by your God doesn't mean they aren't testable if they crossed the line into an event you affirm occurred in the past.

(August 7, 2012 at 11:08 pm)Drich Wrote: you take away the bible to provide you an answer, you take away your right to question God. For without it you can not question Him nor any of his actions. (pre or post Law)

I am not questioning God or his actions. I am questioning the existence of prophets or people who said they saw "God" in the far past and believed that God to be your own. Seriously, it took this long for you to get that? I haven't moved the goalposts a single inch. Your perception of the goalposts is the problem.

(August 7, 2012 at 11:08 pm)Drich Wrote: The 'plan' was to put us in an enviorment free from the direct knoweledge of Him allowing us to live as our hearts would demand. Then offer attonement to anyone who earnestly sought after it. That's it. the rest is a direct consenquence of our (limited) choices in life.

[/quote]
start a new thread i am doing prayer here.

Quote:You already said we don't have free will- err... freedom of choice, and the we are essentially slaves to sin. Either he planned it all, or we can choose. Which is it?

Again the choice is not whether or not to sin the choice is whether or not to accept redemption.

Quote:I'll bet the starving around the globe love him for his trials too.

Those people starve for one reason. Because people like you who see a need do not fill it.

Quote:Your "trials" at least don't involve certain death, loss of loved ones at young ages, and a constant need for things you can't have.

3 of 4

Quote:I had an imaginary friend once, but he wasn't all powerful and I didn't expect him to help me with anything. I kept him to myself, and he only lasted a short time. If I believed him to love me and be powerful enough to help me with anything, I would have believed it impossible to get through suffering with a loving imaginary friend. Why? He wouldn't be loving.

what if you simply did not understand what love is? what if your idea of love was little more than a binding codependant relationship? Because 'your friend' did not force you into codependance He did not love you?

I clarified to avoid this... Not traditional, I said. This is simply what most people think of when they pray. Your version of prayer is indistinguishable from talking to yourself and yields no answer, ever.

Quote:Oh, and my comperhensive skills are just fine, thank you (whatever those are).

It's a term they used in the 80's to politely tell a Learning disabled boy's parents that he did not/could not retain what he just read.

Quote:Your version of prayer is very much like a "no" to a prayer as defined by the average joe. Your prayers consist of "Please God, do what you were going to do in the first place. I love you, btw. Amen".
Regular prayer consists of "God, I know how selfish this is, but please cure my brother's leukemia. Amen"
See how a no to a "regular prayer" is the same as your prayer? Both serve no purpose. Both yield no result. Your prayer is absolutely meaningless, because nothing comes of it and it means nothing to a God that already has your path set out for you.

..And we return to the crux of your faith..
I am not here to argue faith. i gave you several oppertunities to explore what Praying for the will of God could yield, but you decided to reinforce your core beliefs with this statement instead. Which effectivly ends the conversation. I gave you a biblical perspective on prayer, outlined it and supported it, and you want to argue your faith. God gave you a choice to make and you made it. Far be it from me to try and change it or tell you, you made the wrong one.

Bump:

(August 8, 2012 at 4:03 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(August 8, 2012 at 1:30 am)Lion IRC Wrote: One sees a lot of atheists talking about how God never answers prayers.

Why is Madeleine McCann still missing (and most likely dead)?

There's no need to go through the whole case atom by atom, everything you'd want to know is available online. The salient point for this purpose is the fact that Madeleine's parents not only spent a great deal of time visiting mass prayer rallies, the most positive spin of which is that doing so kept the case in the public eye - not only that, but they even had an audience with the Pope a.k.a. God's lieutenant on Earth. All with the aim of petitioning The Almighty™ for little Madeleine's safe return.

So I repeat: why is she still missing?

"But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

Another example of a prayer that has never been answered (despite promises and claims to the contrary)......

(August 9, 2012 at 12:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

Another example of a prayer that has never been answered (despite promises and claims to the contrary)......

Is this not the will of God? (that people who lacks widsom ask and it be given to them?)

Maybe you were around when I explained it but the lord's prayer is not a prayer itself but a model for prayer. The "your will be done" part in the prayer encompasses any promises made by God like this one. Meaning in the model of Prayer Christ leaves, you can ask for any of the promises offered by God as that is apart of His will.

Well, I guess that leaves me to conclude that you've never asked for this wisdom then. I suppose I'll just have to wait for someone who has asked (and has received) to come along and clear the whole mess up.

Lion IRC Wrote:One sees a lot of atheists talking about how God never answers prayers.

(August 8, 2012 at 4:03 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why is Madeleine McCann still missing (and most likely dead)?

There's no need to go through the whole case...
...So I repeat: why is she still missing?

What exactly are people praying for?

The repose of her soul?

The capture of a suspect?

Closure for the parents?

Her early release if she is still alive?

That the world turns away from moral bankruptcy - prostitution, child pornography, drugs, love of money, corruption, child neglect........

(August 9, 2012 at 11:37 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

Lion IRC Wrote:One sees a lot of atheists talking about how God never answers prayers.

(August 8, 2012 at 4:03 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Why is Madeleine McCann still missing (and most likely dead)?

There's no need to go through the whole case...
...So I repeat: why is she still missing?

What exactly are people praying for?

The repose of her soul?

The capture of a suspect?

Closure for the parents?

Her early release if she is still alive?

That the world turns away from moral bankruptcy - prostitution, child pornography, drugs, love of money, corruption, child neglect........

What exactly are people praying for? Are you seriously this dense? Ok, serious misjudgement on my part; clearly I need to spell out the whole thing. Pretend you are a human being for a moment, one parent of an almost four-year-old girl who 'disappears' from a hotel bedroom in Portugal whilst unaccompanied (except by twin siblings half her age). The circumstances and controversies surrounding the case are irrelevant to this scenario. You and your spouse make efforts to find her, involving local police, hotel staff, anyone and everyone who might be an eyewitness, but to no avail; as the days become weeks become months, she remains missing.

You happen to be deeply religious and throughout this time you make high-profile contact with the prayer groups as I mentioned. What the bloody fuck would you expect them to be praying for? They're praying that she remembered to put on clean pants before she left, obviously! That she remembered to cancel the milk, perhaps!

She's still missing, by the way, despite The Almighty™ being petitioned by considerably more than "two or three gathered together", at least a decent percentage of whom would presumably have faith much greater than the size of a mustard seed, one of which petitioner who was even God's bastarding representative on Earth!

If I give the impression of being a little narked, I promise it's purely in response to ignorantly asinine deflections to a straightforward question. I repeat: despite all this fervent and continual prayer activity, why is she still missing and most likely dead? If that question was a bit too vague for you, I'll rephrase it: why has she not been found, alive or dead?

I dont accept your assertion that all those praying are asking God for the same thing.

Many MIGHT be praying for God to bring her back from the dead.
Some might be praying for God to turn back time.
Some might be praying that her body be found and bring closure to the parents.
Others might be praying that a suspect is captured.
Some might be praying that she is in a safe and happy place.

Dont go getting all precious asking me for a direct answer to your oblique, rhetorical, and (if you dont mind me saying) insensitive question.

The person responsible for the fact that girl is missing is the criminal who did it. Your lame accusation against God and Christian prayer groups is tantamount to also asking the law enforcement agencies ''...why is she still missing?''