With the slight caveat that law enforcement agencies don't make the claim that they can make prayers come true.....

And don't forget the fact that law enforcement is not omnipotent.

(August 10, 2012 at 12:54 am)Lion IRC Wrote: I dont accept your assertion that all those praying are asking God for the same thing.

Many MIGHT be praying for God to bring her back from the dead.
Some might be praying for God to turn back time.
Some might be praying that her body be found and bring closure to the parents.
Others might be praying that a suspect is captured.
Some might be praying that she is in a safe and happy place.

Holy Shit!!! This is the dumbest excuse I have ever seen for your impotent and ineffectual god.

(August 10, 2012 at 12:54 am)Lion IRC Wrote: I dont accept your assertion that all those praying are asking God for the same thing.

Many MIGHT be praying for God to bring her back from the dead.
Some might be praying for God to turn back time.
Some might be praying that her body be found and bring closure to the parents.
Others might be praying that a suspect is captured.
Some might be praying that she is in a safe and happy place.

Dont go getting all precious asking me for a direct answer to your oblique, rhetorical, and (if you dont mind me saying) insensitive question.

The person responsible for the fact that girl is missing is the criminal who did it. Your lame accusation against God and Christian prayer groups is tantamount to also asking the law enforcement agencies ''...why is she still missing?''

I don't accept your assertion that even though many people might indeed be praying for those things, none of them have been praying for the girl to be found safe and well; the most natural of the human reactions to such tragedic circumstances. Don't you dare tell me how to respond to a continual smokescreen thrown up by an insensitive, oblique and (if you don't mind me saying) morally bankrupt arsehole.

You were the one bleating about how ironic it was that atheists were the ones complaining about the lack of answers to prayers. Even given your, quite frankly, Olympic-standard athletics to avoid addressing the question in an honest and direct fashion, the fact still remains that none of the prayers, whatever their motivation, have been answered. If police do manage to turn up evidence of Madeleine's fate tomorrow, would you consider that evidence of answered prayer? Or would it be yet more evidence that human actions score over anything that a supposedly interventionist god has ever done (which is nothing)?

Asking the police forces why she is still missing would yield the obvious answer of "because she has not yet been found." This is because, as has been hammered into your skull already, police agencies are not generally held to be omni-everything. This alleged god, even and especially if it exists, has no such excuse.

Quote:Again not true we have it in the Dead sea scrolls. How many times must we do this?

Until you fucking wake up and realize that the DSS scrolls post-date the septuagint and are therefore not the oldest examples of your stupid fucking bible.

You really are thick as shit aren't you, Drippy?

(August 10, 2012 at 7:40 am)Faith No More Wrote: And don't forget the fact that law enforcement is not omnipotent.

Too many of them think they are gods.

(August 10, 2012 at 12:54 am)Lion IRC Wrote: I dont accept your assertion that all those praying are asking God for the same thing.

Many MIGHT be praying for God to bring her back from the dead.
Some might be praying for God to turn back time.
Some might be praying that her body be found and bring closure to the parents.
Others might be praying that a suspect is captured.
Some might be praying that she is in a safe and happy place.

Dont go getting all precious asking me for a direct answer to your oblique, rhetorical, and (if you dont mind me saying) insensitive question.

The person responsible for the fact that girl is missing is the criminal who did it. Your lame accusation against God and Christian prayer groups is tantamount to also asking the law enforcement agencies ''...why is she still missing?''

Who the fuck is that moronic?
So you are seriously telling me you think her parents are going;

They're going "Oh hi God. Just wondering if you could imitate superman when he does that thing to turn back time so we can have Madeline back? I know its a tall order and quite abit more complex than just... giving her back but I don't know, I just feel time travel is the only option here. Not particularly sure what would stop the same thing from happening again but oh well, ta-ta... oh and Amen."

Or "Hey God, not really bothered about Maddy being alive. Could we just have her corpse? Ta-ta... oh and Amen."

Or "Hey God, me again. Yeah, all I'm really concerned about is making sure the guy who kidnapped and very likely raped and killed my little girl goes to prison to get a good ass-pounding. That ok?
Awesome. Amen."

I mean all of these pointless scenarios as opposed to
"Please God. I just want my little girl back. I know I've not been the best father in the world... there hasn't been a moment I haven't regreted letting her out my sight. My wife... she can't cope with any of this. Neither of us have slept for what feels like months. Without her... theres just no point for either us. If theres one thing, just one you do for me then let it be this... don't let her be gone... don't let her be dead. I don't care how, I don't care at what cost. Guide her back to me, I beg of you.
Amen."

You seriously think that? Do you? Are you such a wretched, ignorant farce of a human being that you would deny that as the only thought on a loving fathers mind?
That this be the only prayer of any import?
You disgust me and that takes alot to do.

Raphiel, please take the kudos I just awarded you and multiply it by any number you like, for articulating so clearly how real emotionally-charged human beings react when faced with nightmarish events. Such points are likely to fall on stony ground, I fear, since clearly we're up against pathetically and pathologically ingrained indoctrination which must be defended against all reason no matter what the cost. I can't quite tell whether this intellectually cowardly Lion is immoral or simply amoral; though I have my suspicions.

(Edited spelling of Raph's name to avoid confusion with a famous Renaissance painter and Ninja Turtle.)

(August 10, 2012 at 10:37 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Raphael, please take the kudos I just awarded you and multiply it by any number you like, for articulating so clearly how real emotionally-charged human beings react when faced with nightmarish events. Such points are likely to fall on stony ground, I fear, since clearly we're up against pathetically and pathologically ingrained indoctrination which must be defended against all reason no matter what the cost. I can't quite tell whether this intellectually cowardly Lion is immoral or simply amoral; though I have my suspicions.

Thanks Stimbo. I won't deny I died alittle inside when I attempted to don the mantle of a moral and emotionally healthy human being but I feel alot better now I'm my monstrous and sadistic self again.
Also alittle hungry, maybe I'll fetch one of the theists I keep tied up in my basement for special occasions.

On a serious note, it does infuriate me how someone is willing to degrade the pain of the lives that little girls disappearance has touched to make prayer seem more valid than it obviously is through a rather poorly thought out line of reasoning.
Anyone sincerely praying for Madeline would be praying for her safe return. No question.
Those prayers are simply not answered.

There appears to me to be three categories of prayer. In no particular order, one is the "help me find my car keys" type, which is actually related to the "help, I'm trapped in a burning building" form of prayer when a person finds themselves in dire straits. Out of the three kinds, this is the only one which can be said to have any practical benefit; not because of any divine intervention, but merely by taking a minute to catch your breath and allowing your subconscious to work on the problem, yielding the missing item or the solution to overcome the situation.

Next we have the social brinksmanship prayer which exists purely to allow a person to announce their intention to pray, or in other words to provide every form of help to someone short of actually providing any form of help. It can also carry the message that "I consider some aspect of your life to be broken and/or not up to my standards so I'm just letting you know how superior you make me feel."

The third type of prayer is the one which is relevant to the McCann scenario, the one born of desperation. It's the favourite of fundies who use it as the basis for their "no atheists in foxholes" canard. I can think of no better way of illustrating it than by your words: "Please God. I just want my little girl back. I know I've not been the best father in the world... there hasn't been a moment I haven't regreted letting her out my sight. My wife... she can't cope with any of this. Neither of us have slept for what feels like months. Without her... theres just no point for either us. If theres one thing, just one you do for me then let it be this... don't let her be gone... don't let her be dead. I don't care how, I don't care at what cost. Guide her back to me, I beg of you. Amen."

The person resorting to this category of prayer may not necessarily be expecting an actual intervention; it's a genuinely heartfelt expression of grief and loss and longing. Sadly, the response rate of such petitions is a result of pure random chance, all else being equal.