(August 15, 2012 at 7:15 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Here is another question I asked at an Alpha course to which I received no answer - not even an unconvincing one!

I asked why there had to be a crucifixion. Couldn't Jesus have come to earth, done the miracles, sermon on the mount, last supper etc. then said “The Romans are coming to arrest me but they will not find me – I am going to my father - be nice to each other and I will return one day (as he ascended into Heaven).” that way you could still have the condition that you have to believe in Jesus but cut out the nasty crucifixion bit. The answer from the vicar was that the crucifixion was the heart of being a Christian. That seemed like circular logic to me – we are Christians because of the crucifixion and the crucifixion made us Christians.

Perhaps another one for the theists on this forum.

Regards

Grimesy

I think because saying.

"and god went home for a bit to atone for your sins" does not carry the same guilt burden as: "God had to be tortured and humiliated TO DEATH because you, yes you, could not stop touching yourself, you pathetic little excuse for a man"

Gotta pile on the guilt or the whole thing falls down.

Of course, DBP, I don't feel the least bit guilty.

(August 15, 2012 at 12:56 pm)Drich Wrote:

(August 15, 2012 at 7:15 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Here is another question I asked at an Alpha course to which I received no answer - not even an unconvincing one!

I asked why there had to be a crucifixion. Couldn't Jesus have come to earth, done the miracles, sermon on the mount, last supper etc. then said “The Romans are coming to arrest me but they will not find me – I am going to my father - be nice to each other and I will return one day (as he ascended into Heaven).” that way you could still have the condition that you have to believe in Jesus but cut out the nasty crucifixion bit. The answer from the vicar was that the crucifixion was the heart of being a Christian. That seemed like circular logic to me – we are Christians because of the crucifixion and the crucifixion made us Christians.

Perhaps another one for the theists on this forum.

Regards

Grimesy

I think I answered this in the other thread.

The crusifiction was a physical manfestation of the turmoil and suffering Christ endured on a spiritual level. He endured this so we would have some idea of the cost of salvation/attonement for sin.

This was so good I had to pause 'Stairway to Heaven' for it. I was right at the crescendo too; no shit.

Tell me now, oh wise sage - How would we know the significance of the cost, given that all we have witnessed is a man dieing and a bunch of texts that are barely substantial to begin with? If you mention the holy ghost I'm going to strangle you with your own corporal mortification device.

I'm trying to read "The Monstrosity of Christ: Paradox or Dialectic?" (by Zizek; when a "communist" intellectual tries to rehabilitate Christian theodicity, something interesting has to be going on) and he's very keen on this idea of a suffering God. He's pretty big on G K Chesterton's reading of the book of Job: at the end, when God begins the rant/exchange "Where we're you when I laid the foundations of the earth..." God wasn't expressing a simple "stfu, you can't do what I do" but more "d00d, you think that was bad? You should see how horribly messed up everything looks from up here." I haven't read enough to trace out Zizek's logic, but the need for a suffering God is in there somewhere.

Also, Zizek somehow manages to argue that as an atheist, he's a better Christian than contemporary Christians. If only the writing wasn't so dense... (also: the preponderance of esoteric concepts/quotes)

So uh... It's an interesting angle you might want to check out, but I don't know how to articulate it properly.

(August 15, 2012 at 7:15 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Here is another question I asked at an Alpha course to which I received no answer - not even an unconvincing one!

I asked why there had to be a crucifixion. Couldn't Jesus have come to earth, done the miracles, sermon on the mount, last supper etc. then said “The Romans are coming to arrest me but they will not find me – I am going to my father - be nice to each other and I will return one day (as he ascended into Heaven).” that way you could still have the condition that you have to believe in Jesus but cut out the nasty crucifixion bit. The answer from the vicar was that the crucifixion was the heart of being a Christian. That seemed like circular logic to me – we are Christians because of the crucifixion and the crucifixion made us Christians.

Perhaps another one for the theists on this forum.

Regards

Grimesy

(bolded above by me for emphasis)
That's basically what Yeshua said, numerous times...

As I said before, sacrifice is a pussy's way out of accountability even though there are several passages that state each will be judged by their own deeds.

(August 15, 2012 at 11:34 am)CliveStaples Wrote:

(August 15, 2012 at 7:15 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Here is another question I asked at an Alpha course to which I received no answer - not even an unconvincing one!

I asked why there had to be a crucifixion. Couldn't Jesus have come to earth, done the miracles, sermon on the mount, last supper etc. then said “The Romans are coming to arrest me but they will not find me – I am going to my father - be nice to each other and I will return one day (as he ascended into Heaven).” that way you could still have the condition that you have to believe in Jesus but cut out the nasty crucifixion bit. The answer from the vicar was that the crucifixion was the heart of being a Christian. That seemed like circular logic to me – we are Christians because of the crucifixion and the crucifixion made us Christians.

Perhaps another one for the theists on this forum.

Regards

Grimesy

Well, the simple answer would be "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22). The tougher question, I think, is the more general one: why is shedding of blood necessary for the remission of sin?

That's an interesting question. I think it was pretty common back then to believe in this 'paradox' where death or the shedding of blood leads to eternal life.

Us too you have saved by shedding blood which grants eternity.
-Mithraic inscription accompanied by Mithra slaying the bull

(August 15, 2012 at 10:45 am)Kayenneh Wrote: Grimesy, a question for you. Why the Alpha course and how can you stand it?

I did a thread about the Alpha Course here

http://atheistforums.org/thread-8990.html

I didn't quite last to the end.

Incidently I was talking to the cousin I mentioned in the thread last night. Turns out that she did not realise that stars were suns or that our sun was a star. "What did you think they were ?!!" I asked in astonishment.
She thought they were all planets.

Regards

Grimesy

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(August 15, 2012 at 12:56 pm)Drich Wrote: I think I answered this in the other thread.

The crusifiction was a physical manfestation of the turmoil and suffering Christ endured on a spiritual level. He endured this so we would have some idea of the cost of salvation/attonement for sin.

Are you saying that it was a demonstration, or bit of theatre to make a point. Couldn't god have done something else like turn the sun off for a bit or make the sky turn orange.

I'm not trying to be trite or facetious, but it just does not make sense to me that a human sacrifice was necessary, in and of itself, to the exclusion of all other courses of action (like flying off in a fiery chariot).

More broadly speaking, when is a human sacrifice ever needed for anything.

Regards

Grimesy

Quote:More broadly speaking, when is a human sacrifice ever needed for anything.

Well, it seems that the god(s) tell the priests when its time for a little blood-letting to awe the dolts.

Of course, the priests could very well come up with that bullshit on their own without any sort of supernatural being telling them to. I mean, who would know other than the priests themselves and they aren't going to piss in their own rice bowl!

(August 15, 2012 at 2:32 pm)Gambit Wrote: How would we know the significance of the cost, given that all we have witnessed is a man dieing and a bunch of texts that are barely substantial to begin with? If you mention the holy ghost I'm going to strangle you with your own corporal mortification device.

you ask why did Jesus Have to die for our sins.

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(August 16, 2012 at 5:50 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: Are you saying that it was a demonstration, or bit of theatre to make a point. Couldn't god have done something else like turn the sun off for a bit or make the sky turn orange.

what does that have to do with the pain, loss, despare, the brutal ripping and seperation God the Son endured Spiritually and physically?

Quote:I'm not trying to be trite or facetious, but it just does not make sense to me that a human sacrifice was necessary, in and of itself, to the exclusion of all other courses of action (like flying off in a fiery chariot).

More broadly speaking, when is a human sacrifice ever needed for anything.

Don't know what you mean.

(August 16, 2012 at 8:20 pm)Drich Wrote: Don't know what you mean.

That's because, you're ignorant!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu8EK7Rq9_w