(October 31, 2012 at 5:34 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: What did you not understand about my first point (point "1")?

As for point "2", I'm saying that how do you know that your accepted knowledge of your experience is consistent with your idea of God? How does it validate it?

And what information do you consider trustworthy for belief in God?

I don't understand anything of Q1

2. ? Because it's the same?!
3. The information that I have. (Seriously, I'm not willing to regurgitate stuff I've said to you in the past, sorry.)

(October 31, 2012 at 11:59 pm)Drich Wrote: If 8 times out of 10 you got shocked when you turned on a given light switch, would it be your belief that the next time you turn on the switch even though 2 times out of 10 you did not get shocked? Or would the 'hits' preveil over the 'misses?"

Whether the hits prevail over the misses is not the same as 'counting the hits and ignoring the misses' - which is what I said. If you ignore the misses then you don't even know that the hits are prevailing over them. That is my point.

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fr0d0 Wrote:I don't understand anything of Q1

Well, my question was in response to this:

fr0d0 Wrote:You know his will as you test it against your knowledge of him.

I'll rephrase my question then: how can you know his will 'as you test it [his will] against your knowledge of him' if you need to know his will before you can test his will 'against your knowledge of him' in the first place?

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(October 31, 2012 at 5:34 pm)DoubtVsFaith Wrote: As for point "2", I'm saying that how do you know that your accepted knowledge of your experience is consistent with your idea of God? How does it validate it?

(November 1, 2012 at 12:26 am)fr0d0 Wrote: 2. ? Because it's the same?!

So your conception of "God" is identical to your knowledge of your experience? So the knowledge that you have of your experience is what you would call "God", and your conception of "God" is what you would call "the knowledge of your experience"? So you are merely labelling the knowledge of your own personal experience as "God?"

Quote:When God speaks or directs 'we' know.

How?

Drich Wrote:You out of everyone here know how you can have assureance of the existance of God. All you need is the Smallest amount of faith to simply ask, seek and knock, as He has taken the time to outline in Luke 11, and God will open the gates of heaven to you and give you what you are looking for. Because you will not humble yourself to God, you are turning your back on what He has offered you in the way of the 'proof' you know you need.

So you have said, repeatedly I might add.

This all returns us back to my comment about confirmation bias. All I need to do is believe in god, and suddenly, he will reveal himself in the way of proof. At least that is how I will interpret it through my error in coming to a conclusion before examining the data. Why is that god requires people to seek him through such an absolutely flawed manner of discerning the truth?

[quote='DoubtVsFaith' pid='357312' dateline='1351762971']
Whether the hits prevail over the misses is not the same as 'counting the hits and ignoring the misses' - which is what I said. If you ignore the misses then you don't even know that the hits are prevailing over them. That is my point.
[/quote]

It is funny to me that you have such a deep concern of the accuracy of how your statement was presented, and little to no concern if the statement you presented was even accurate.

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[quote='Kirbmarc' pid='357331' dateline='1351770536']
[quote]When God speaks or directs 'we' know.[/quote]

How?
[/quote]

When your father/mother or any loved one speaks from out of a crowd of people how is it you know thier voice?

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[quote='Faith No More' pid='357357' dateline='1351774723']
[quote]So you have said, repeatedly I might add.

This all returns us back to my comment about confirmation bias. All I need to do is believe in god, and suddenly, he will reveal himself in the way of proof. [/quote]No.
Many of you believe now even though you can not admit it. Belief in of itself is meaningless. Belief needs to yield a mustard seeds worth of faith. It is this faith that has us Ask for the proof God offers, It has us seek out the gift He has promised to give and it has us seek until we find it.

[quote]At least that is how I will interpret it through my error in coming to a conclusion before examining the data. Why is that god requires people to seek him through such an absolutely flawed manner of discerning the truth?[/quote]Because in order for one to do this on His terms, one must first humble himself before God or even just the idea of God. So that one has put aside all of the prideful reasons and arguements that would demand God first seek them out and prove Himself to them, through various favors or magic tricks. God is not a circus clown or birthday party magician. God is Sovern. Meaning God has ultimate authority. Even with our various world leaders we respect them enough to not make them prove themselves to us on an indivisual basis. For example if the President of the United States, or the Queen of England invited you over for a State dinner, would you first demand the he/she appear before you and personally ask you? Would you try and change the venue or ask for a greater honor than what has already been presented to you?

Then why should an almighty sovern God be reduced to parlor tricks? Especially when He has made a provision for 'evidence' and issued a command that we follow it?

Humble yourself before God and He will lift you up.

You're missing the point, which is that you claim that god intends human beings to use a method of attaining knowledge that is well-known to create flawed results, but a very humble and rational person would be justified in dismissing any knowledge obtained in such a manner due to its propensity for producing those flawed results. How would your god justify sending a person to hell that was merely guilty of using the mental faculties given to them?

(November 1, 2012 at 9:06 am)Drich Wrote: It is funny to me that you have such a deep concern of the accuracy of how your statement was presented, and little to no concern if the statement you presented was even accurate.

I'm not concerned about the accuracy of the statement because I'm too confident that it's correct to worry about it being untrue. If you can provide evidence that I'm wrong about 'counting the hits and ignoring the misses' being a logical fallacy then I'll change my belief.

(November 1, 2012 at 9:06 am)Drich Wrote:

(November 1, 2012 at 7:48 am)Kirbmarc Wrote: How?

When your father/mother or any loved one speaks from out of a crowd of people how is it you know thier voice?

Never heard god's voice, wouldn't recognize it. I assume you are referring to your inner Jiminy Cricket, again... Yeah, that's just you, your inner self, not a divine being.

I think you can't know if prayer works unless you recognize the divine helper within you.

The first step to guidance, is to know yourself. That means you have to let go of all assumptions you have of yourself, and plunge into the depths of what you actually know. This is true regardless if a Creator or soul exists, because then you really don't know yourself at all, if you are just perceiving yourself from chaotic world of false gods (metaphorically speaking).

When your whole foundation begins to break, you might than understand why you need divine help. And at the moment of hope, it may come.

The thing is people say they are seeking divine help, but they really seek help from people and authority.

A Christian seeks help from the bible, from his culture, from his people, try as much as he wants, he will ignore the divine help that will may him recognize the truth, because he is relying on delusions created by others.

It doesn't take belief in in a divine help, it takes hope, and cutting of all false ropes and realizing the one true handhold you have to recognizing yourself in moments of despair and confusion.

Of course, I can't prove any of this, it's anecdotal.

(November 1, 2012 at 11:15 am)festive1 Wrote:

(November 1, 2012 at 9:06 am)Drich Wrote: When your father/mother or any loved one speaks from out of a crowd of people how is it you know thier voice?

Never heard god's voice, wouldn't recognize it. I assume you are referring to your inner Jiminy Cricket, again... Yeah, that's just you, your inner self, not a divine being.

I agree festive1