(November 13, 2012 at 3:38 pm)Rhythm Wrote: This, btw, is why I cannot stand it when people invoke the opinion of a god..or when they imply that we have no grounds for criticizing or disagreeing with these supposed opinions of god.

OK, but I don't recall doing that myself.

Quote:You and I have explored vanilla, we found areas where we agree and areas where we do not. We could meet at some point from the common ground of getting sick without ever agreeing on whether or not vanilla is better than chocolate. Because we can refer to what can be demonstrated (what can be known) in the formation of our varying opinions we have at least the opportunity to make a compelling case for our opinions (and to compare our opinions with those of others). Because I'm willing to concede that my opinion is merely my own -that it is subjective- I am not required to show how "heavy" chocolate is...a herculean task if you really think about it...nor is it actually required to be heavy to begin with. IOW, we can actually have a discussion..wheres "godopinesit" is a dead end. "Why does god opine it?" -

Suppose you and I never come back to this forum. Isn't there a possibility that some people could learn something or be affected in some way by what we've written? I think so, and so have to disagree that the written word is a meaningless dead end.

Oh how quickly you've forgotten the very statement that brought me here John. It was such low hanging fruit that I've had fun at it's expense for the last few pages. Who said that the written word is a meaningless dead end? I was stating that it is my opinion that the opinions of your god (or any god..) are a meaningless dead end. "Just so" statements.

(November 13, 2012 at 3:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You wouldn't be implying that your own opinions aren't compelling reasons for things..even to you...would you?

Er, no, I don't see that they are, but your wording is pretty vague and seems circular.

Does it seem circular, what part? Can you elaborate on that?

While we're elaborating......You found it interesting that Darkstar argued that his opinions were correct and those that disagreed were wrong, considering that he would criticize god for doing so. For my own part I think a more damning indictment of the "opinions of god" isn't that god is said to have opinions or that gods opinions are supposedly the correct ones, but that god is incapable of elaborating upon them. "This opinion is incorrect - and here's why I think this is so-."

The opinions of Darkstar and the opinions of a god aren't even in the same category, god's opinions fall somewhere around the value of toast for conversational purposes because

A: no one actually knows what they are
B: Darkstar can be produced as an authority assuming responsibility for his opinions

and, importantly...

C: Darkstar is capable of elaborating and expanding upon those opinions, without this ability the imagination strains to conceive of a way that a conversation might ensue..let alone a debate of relative merit...or resolution between two differing opinions.

Maybe that's why gods opinions are so often followed by "agree with me or else"?

(November 13, 2012 at 4:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Oh how quickly you've forgotten the very statement that brought me here John.

It was:

Quote:It's interesting that you're basically arguing that your opinion is correct and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Yet, you criticize God for doing the same.

and was directed to Darkstar.

Quote:It was such low hanging fruit that I've had fun at it's expense for the last few pages. Who said that the written word is a meaningless dead end?

You did: "..wheres "godopinesit" is a dead end. I presume you intend "dead end" to convey "meaningless," but included it in my paraphrase for clarity.

Quote:I was stating that it is my opinion that the opinions of your god (or any god..) are a meaningless dead end. "Just so" statements.

Er, yes, I knew that from "Religious Views: Hostile." Another NSS moment.

"godopinesit"=/= the written word. Hell, you won't even be able to establish that the words written about gods opinions actually have anything to do with a gods opinions...will you?

Now clearly, we have a difference of opinion on a couple of subjects here...and just to keep driving this spike into the rails...I bet that both you and I can elaborate upon our opinions (and why we presumably feel that the other persons opinion is ill-informed, incorrect, or just plain batshit crazy) while god remains incapable of doing so.

(November 13, 2012 at 4:13 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Does it seem circular, what part? Can you elaborate on that?

"Reasons for things...to [myself]" seems pretty much like an opinion. As noted, it's vague, clarify if you like.

Quote:While we're elaborating......You found it interesting that Darkstar argued that his opinions were correct and those that disagreed were wrong, considering that he would criticize god for doing so.

Yep.

Quote:For my own part I think a more damning indictment of the "opinions of god" isn't that god is said to have opinions or that gods opinions are supposedly the correct ones, but that god is incapable of elaborating upon them. "This opinion is incorrect - and here's why I think this is so-."

To repeat: Suppose you and I never come back to this forum. Isn't there a possibility that some people could learn something or be affected in some way by what we've written? I think so, and so have to disagree that the written word is a meaningless dead end.

Quote:The opinions of Darkstar and the opinions of a god aren't even in the same category, god's opinions fall somewhere around the value of toast for conversational purposes because

A: no one actually knows what they are

This forum generates plenty of conversation regarding god's opinions. You butted into a good one.

Quote:B: Darkstar can be produced as an authority assuming responsibility for his opinions

and, importantly...

C: Darkstar is capable of elaborating and expanding upon those opinions, without this ability the imagination strains to conceive of a way that a conversation might ensue..let alone a debate of relative merit...or resolution between two differing opinions.

Again, I disagree that the written word is a meaningless dead end. I can learn from a book even if I'll never meet the author.

You keep talking about the written word as though it were one and the same as what god opines. It's getting aggravating.

Are the reasons that you find compelling for this or that required to be anything other than an opinion John? If your own subjective things (opinions) cannot be used as compelling reasons for this or that (at the very least..to yourself) I think you'd spend the majority o your time in a state of self imposed paralysis...staring at the wall. IOW, if I'm back to square one...you're right there with me, only you're not capable of deciding what you want for dinner..and I am.

John V is the same guy who said that I was making the "tautological fallacy" when I said that existence is always necessarily existent. He might as well say that married people aren't always necessarily married, squares aren't always squares, circles aren't always circles etc. 2+2 isn't always 4 apparently.

Well,, we all have opinions DvF.... Was he capable of elaborating upon that?