Every post I see from A theist just sounds like this to me:

That is so accurate Napoleon.
It's all about sex, you can tell anybody that thinks 9 millimetres is impressive is not going to be that sexually active.

(December 23, 2012 at 6:15 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Every post I see from A theist just sounds like this to me:

...and every post from Napoleon sounds like this...

(December 23, 2012 at 5:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It -is- a right, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to be responsible about it. Rights can be (and are) revoked for a variety of reasons. You don't have to do anything to avail yourself of that right, there's no "earning it" but you can do a great deal to harm it.

The question in the Poll was should it be a right, it was not, IS it a right? Thus the opinion I offered.

I'm well aware that it is currently a right granted by the constitution.
One could argue that driving a car is far more important than shooting a gun, and yet it is still not a right granted to every American.
I'm of the opinion that gun ownership should be the same. For one, I know that I personally would qualify. People with nothing to hide have nothing to fear when it comes to tougher gun laws.

People with nothing to hide have nothing to fear from tougher anti-terrorism laws.

Unless, of course, they do. Lets not get too trusting of our rulers eh? They haven't shown themselves to be the most trustworthy of folks.
(Drivers licenses do what again to curb driving related incidents? You know it wasn't until the 50's that people had to pass exams to hold such a license.....and who taught them I wonder?)

I, personally, feel that I have a great deal to fear from a government that insists that I demonstrate that I have nothing to hide. Like you said though, just an opinion.

Is America inspired by Zardoz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOROvO2fxTc

(December 23, 2012 at 7:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: People with nothing to hide have nothing to fear from tougher anti-terrorism laws.

Unless, of course, they do.

Cryptic, conspiratorial and off-topic. I have nothing to hide regarding tougher gun laws. End of story.

Quote:Lets not get too trusting of our rulers eh? They haven't shown themselves to be the most trustworthy of folks.

Agreed, our government sucks, but it does on occasion safeguard MANY aspects of American life and where I alone am concerned, I would support the stricter regulations in favor of saving children's lives.

Quote:(Drivers licenses do what again to curb driving related incidents?)

Actually, a great deal, but you're very smart Rhythm and I think you're well aware that you're greatly simplifying my comparison of a right vs. a privilege to a comparison of a Drivers license and a gun permit. There's far more to it than that and you know it.

Quote:You know it wasn't until the 50's that people had to pass exams to hold such a license.....and who taught them I wonder?)

Who cares? It's irrelevant to my point. We have a problem with crazies getting their hands on guns. IMO, we should make some kind of effort to stop that.

Quote:I, personally, feel that I have a great deal to fear from a government that insists that I demonstrate that I have nothing to hide. Like you said though, just an opinion.

I actually do understand that sentiment, but somebody has to give a little, and I for one am willing to give a little.
Who really gives a shit if it takes longer to get a gun and you're forced to be responsible with it? That'll just have to be the price you pay to acquire one. We can adjust, and those who can't ... too fucking bad, my child's life is worth more than some guy's exaggerated case of butthurt.

(December 23, 2012 at 6:42 pm)A Theist Wrote: ...and every post from Napoleon sounds like this...

Original.

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(December 24, 2012 at 2:38 am)Cinjin Wrote: We have a problem with crazies getting their hands on guns. IMO, we should make some kind of effort to stop that.

My sentiments exactly.

It doesn't mean outlawing guns full stop, it means getting priorities right. People's safety should be above the right to own a gun as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:People's safety should be above the right to own a gun as far as I'm concerned.

You'd think that would be self-evident. I guess it's hard to get over being paranoid of a government you could never realistically defend yourself against in combat no matter how many guns you own, or of all the criminals who can only threaten you with guns they can easily access because you insist on having easy access to them. It must be hard to accept that the safety of gun ownership is mostly an illusion.

I have yet to see a single convincing argument in favor of unlimited and virtually unregulated gun ownership. What I see is people claiming that M16s and garden hoes are equally dangerous weapons with what I can only assume is a straight face, defending the Second Amendment with the same principled fervor as a theist (or A Theist) defending good ol' JFC, and in general blaming everything else under the sun for gun violence when it is suggested that perhaps the guns are part of the problem. We live in a country where random massacres happen all the time and we consider it taboo to have a proper discussion regarding what to do about it.

(December 24, 2012 at 2:38 am)Cinjin Wrote: Cryptic, conspiratorial and off-topic. I have nothing to hide regarding tougher gun laws. End of story.

Hardly cryptic, conspiratorial, or off-topic. Granting a governing body the authority to insist that you demonstrate that you have nothing to hide is definitely something worthy of fear. Laws aren't written in a vacuum. If you grant precedent it can and will be used elsewhere (perhaps some place that you aren't quite as accepting of - but what argument could you offer then?). How do you get tougher than background checks, waiting periods, permitting, registration, revocation of rights, and 10-20-Life? These are all laws currently on the books, in effect, and enforced to various degrees. Some states (like Florida) have every one of these laws in effect.

Quote:Agreed, our government sucks, but it does on occasion safeguard MANY aspects of American life and where I alone am concerned, I would support the stricter regulations in favor of saving children's lives.

True, they do a shitty job sometimes but at least they're trying. I would suggest that enforcing current gun laws adequately would have the effect you desire. I also have to add that "doing it for the children" is a great sell for stripping anyone of any right - I mean hey, who could argue against that eh?

Quote:Actually, a great deal, but you're very smart Rhythm and I think you're well aware that you're greatly simplifying my comparison of a right vs. a privilege to a comparison of a Drivers license and a gun permit. There's far more to it than that and you know it.

Not by any metrics I've ever seen. It's not as though traffic related deaths have dropped since licensing came into effect. There -is- far more to this issue and I've seen it consistently ignored in every thread.

Quote:Who cares? It's irrelevant to my point. We have a problem with crazies getting their hands on guns. IMO, we should make some kind of effort to stop that.

Absolutely, like enforcing the law that nearly every state (pretty sure it's every state...but I'll leave some room for uncertainty) has on the books that says "it's illegal to sell crazy a gun" - and "it's illegal for crazy to own a gun".

Quote:I actually do understand that sentiment, but somebody has to give a little, and I for one am willing to give a little.
Who really gives a shit if it takes longer to get a gun and you're forced to be responsible with it? That'll just have to be the price you pay to acquire one. We can adjust, and those who can't ... too fucking bad, my child's life is worth more than some guy's exaggerated case of butthurt.

A sentiment I understand as well, putting the interests of your child before the interests of a populations rights and bulwarks against the tyranny of government. It will take you and I longer to get a gun (provided it's on the approved list of firearms- of course) because we are law abiding, responsible gun owners - it wont take crazy or criminal any longer than it currently does. It won't be crazy or criminal that tougher gun laws (tougher than whats on the books already - and I keep imploring people to actually go check the books btw) affect, it will be John Q. It would be legislation that infringes upon the rights of a citizen who has done nothing to justify such infringement based upon the actions of those who have. Like I've said in other threads, if we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it....but lets be nice and blunt with ourselves about it for once. We just can't handle this right, this freedom, it has nothing to do with guns and everything to do with our own failure to live up to the standards demanded by this freer society. We're more interested in safety, however that's sold (even if the pitch is little more than a bill of goods). For the children, you know?