(January 17, 2013 at 10:00 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

Drich Wrote:IF you earnestly Take God up on His promise He will show up.

How will he show up?

With puppies and kittens and ice cream for everyone.

What?? No motorcycles??

Bummer

(January 17, 2013 at 7:18 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 17, 2013 at 2:30 am)Drich Wrote: IF you earnestly Take God up on His promise He will show up.

Didn't you claim that you had that particular dream before you started A/S/King? Before you'd taken "god up on his promise"?

no

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(January 17, 2013 at 10:00 am)FallentoReason Wrote:

Drich Wrote:IF you earnestly Take God up on His promise He will show up.

How will he show up?

We are to A/S/K for the Measure of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit being God, will come to be apart of you. The bible describes His inital indwelling to be accompanied by "Spiritual fruit" or the Fruit of the Spirit. If one is Faithful, Spiritual fruit will grow into Spiritual gifts. I can provide a biblical list of 'fruit and gifts" if you like.

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(January 17, 2013 at 10:08 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 17, 2013 at 2:30 am)Drich Wrote: My eyes were open to something I did not know could exist. The clarity and realism of it has been set in my mind as a physical memory and not a dream. (meaning it seems and plays out as if I were there.) It is as real as anything else I have experienced in this life.

Honestly. If my experience of God was like yours i would most likly share your beliefs. I am not a man of great faith. I am a show me person and even then... I've experienced alot because it took alot to convince me, and even then I question and get scared when things don't go as I think they should. The only real difference between you an me? A/S/K.

IF you earnestly Take God up on His promise He will show up.

You have absolutely no clue how easily humans can "feel" something falsely. Having something "feel real" is not the same as actually being real.

Phantom pain is a REAL psychological condition when someone loses a limb. They are NOT feeling a ghost limb. They are having a misfire in their brain that sends false signals to their brain that makes them feel that false pain.

You are merely mistaking your brain activity as being something real.

If you want to believe badly enough that something is real, you will, but that does not make it real.

Again as I have said in the past. This experience was meant for me. I share here because I was asked. If you want to see for your self then ask God to show you. Dare Him to send you to Hell to see for yourself. See what Happens. I will personally promise each and everyone who asks this will go...

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(January 17, 2013 at 10:27 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: Been wait'in 50 years...your god has made a "no show"

The command isn't to wait. It is to Ask, Seek, and Knock. We ask in prayer, We seek in the bible, in Church and in conversations like this, and we knock by repeating this process till we have what we have been asking and seeking for. In luke 11:5-12 Christ illustrates this process in a parable.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...rsion=NKJV

You can wait another 50, and will not see God. Or you can take him up on His promise, and spend an eternity getting to know Him.

Quote:We are to A/S/K for the Measure of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit being God, will come to be apart of you. The bible describes His inital indwelling to be accompanied by "Spiritual fruit" or the Fruit of the Spirit. If one is Faithful, Spiritual fruit will grow into Spiritual gifts. I can provide a biblical list of 'fruit and gifts" if you like.

I simply want to know in what way is God giving you revelations.

Let's think of your brain as a closed system where thoughts about what to eat, what to do, how you're feeling, memories etc basically anything you could do with your brain is happening because of the internal chemicals and what not. Now, a revelation by definition is an external being passing down to you some sort of message. I want to know how it penetrates your closed system thus making it possible for you to obtain the knowledge and retain it in your brain.

If no explanation can be given, then I have no choice but to conclude that e.g. voices in your head are due to your closed system i.e. they're coming from your own brain i.e. you're hallucinating/delusional.

EDIT: now, you might see what the problem is; your faith-based claim should be producing empirical evidence that would show your closed system is gaining information from somewhere else. Paradox my friend.

(January 17, 2013 at 11:08 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 17, 2013 at 7:18 am)pocaracas Wrote: Didn't you claim that you had that particular dream before you started A/S/King? Before you'd taken "god up on his promise"?

no

Sorry about that.... I must have mixed up your chronology.

But then, a glaring question pops up.... If you were already ASKing for it, it was something you wanted.... and your subconscious just supplied the dream, no?

You claim it had details of which you weren't aware, but maybe it was based on things you'd once heard, but forgot, or things you read recently, but paid no matter... who knows?

But you were ASKing. You were expecting something divine... and that's how you interpreted it.
The easiest person to convince is the one that's already convinced.

(January 17, 2013 at 11:34 am)FallentoReason Wrote: I simply want to know in what way is God giving you revelations.

Let's think of your brain as a closed system where thoughts about what to eat, what to do, how you're feeling, memories etc basically anything you could do with your brain is happening because of the internal chemicals and what not. Now, a revelation by definition is an external being passing down to you some sort of message. I want to know how it penetrates your closed system thus making it possible for you to obtain the knowledge and retain it in your brain.

If no explanation can be given, then I have no choice but to conclude that e.g. voices in your head are due to your closed system i.e. they're coming from your own brain i.e. you're hallucinating/delusional.

EDIT: now, you might see what the problem is; your faith-based claim should be producing empirical evidence that would show your closed system is gaining information from somewhere else. Paradox my friend.

Asked and answered.
Dreams/visions, He sent a Messenger, understanding of scripture before it is confirmed through study. (The External study and confirmation is what makes it a revelation) He opens doors like having a complete Stranger (Jewish man) hand me 25k and tell me he was lead to start me out in business.
Again by defination all revelations.

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(January 17, 2013 at 11:36 am)pocaracas Wrote: Sorry about that.... I must have mixed up your chronology.

But then, a glaring question pops up.... If you were already ASKing for it, it was something you wanted.... and your subconscious just supplied the dream, no?

The dream was not the catalist for my A/S/K. The Dream was the reason I wanted to seek God as the bible described Him and not my or the religious/christian understanding of Him. Prior to the dream I sought out many different expressions of God. i was seeking 'proof' but did not have direction. The dream gave me direction.

The dream itself I do not believe came from me as it revealed a Hell I could not have imagined, and have verified by a text that was unknown to me at the time. Again My Idea of Hell was based on Dante's Infrno, which is nothing like what I experienced.

My best 'christian effort' at the time would have been a bastard version of Catholisim (as is most of what I read here.) Nothing wrong with that if that is what you know, unless you do not or can not change when proven to be wrong by the scripture.

Quote:You claim it had details of which you weren't aware, but maybe it was based on things you'd once heard, but forgot, or things you read recently, but paid no matter... who knows?

Who knows indeed. For me it was enough. Again God gives us Exactly what we need. This is what I needed to kick start my faith. Hopfully if you seek, you will not have to visit the gates of Hell lest you have rubber sheets on your bed.

Quote:But you were ASKing. You were expecting something divine... and that's how you interpreted it.

I was asking for the truth. Not a sign. Even with my Hell experience I did not ask to go there. I simply thought how bad could it be, because I thought as most of you. That i am basically a 'good person.' and was probably detined for purgatory because God never did any magic tricks for me to proove Himself to me. If their was no proof, then how could He expect me to believe? After all even Gave Thomas proof, why couldn't He give it to me?

The answer to that is the bible, more over Christ himself Tells us their is proof to be had to all who ASk, Seek and Knock. And if we did not have it was because we did not A/S/K

Quote:The easiest person to convince is the one that's already convinced.

Actually that is untrue. The HARDEST Person to Save is one who thinks he is already saved. If I was a good person in my mind then why did I need God? More over if I thought my luke warm expression of christianity was good enough because the TV preacher said it was if I said this prayer and sent him the 20 dollars he asked for, then why is their a need to A/S/K for something that will upset my routine?

Chirst found this to be true as well in speaking to the Pharasees, as did the Apstoles, which is why they had to reach out to the Gentiles as well. People do not like to question their foundational beliefs.

Drich Wrote:If I was a good person in my mind then why did I need God?

To get some tail?

(January 17, 2013 at 4:16 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

Drich Wrote:If I was a good person in my mind then why did I need God?

To get some tail?

Chasing tail is what brought me to Church A instead of Church B. A given fellowship of believers has little to do with getting to know God.

Just like eating Girl scout cookies does not make one a girl scout, going to one church or antoher does not make one a Christian.

I think we have something of a conflict here, between people like Brian wanting to debate the validity of divine revelation, whereas the OP, FtR, appeared more interested in exploring what believers in divine revelation themselves believe about the process. (e.g. "I was thinking today at work how this revelation stuff works, but in terms of the science. Does God create matter in your brain that gets interpreted as a revelation? Does he even violate his own natural laws at all?" - FtR) I must confess, I myself am more interested in exploring their belief than debating it; reasons and arguments for debating the validity of it are a dime a dozen; I'd like to hear more about the specifics of the belief itself.

Anyway. Thank you, Drich, for your candor and explanation. There are elements in your explanation which puzzle me, but I am not interested in committing to exploring them at this time. Thank you anyway.

Drich Wrote:Dreams/visions,

Woah, woah, slow down! You're already on a whim claiming then that God interferes in nature to produce these revelation? I'd like to know how please.

As I explained, we can think of ourselves as closed systems and anything that comes out of us was from our own brain. Anything that enters came from the environment. Now you sir are already claiming that you're receivin information from *somewhere*. I'd like to know the science behind it as your claim implicitly proposes that nature is being messed around with. Therefore I should expect to find empirical evidence.

Quote:He sent a Messenger, understanding of scripture before it is confirmed through study. (The External study and confirmation is what makes it a revelation) He opens doors like having a complete Stranger (Jewish man) hand me 25k and tell me he was lead to start me out in business.

All I see here is two closed systems who read the same book and decided on their own to live by it. I don't see where the hand of God comes in.