Because you ignored the rest. Do your own research. I'm not playing this game.

(April 12, 2013 at 3:00 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Could you be more specific? Which Indian gurus? And were entire events fabricated? Did people respond with a change in lifestyle? The only case I see that matches that description is Mormonism, which arose out of warfare as much as it did Smith's words.

Just out of curiosity do you think people believe in Muhammad because of heresay?

Muhammad was a political leader who conquered lands. Most early followers were forcibly included. Dissenters, he killed: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/A..._poets.htm Islam, like all major religions, began out of action rather than hearsay.

(April 12, 2013 at 12:39 pm)ebg Wrote: Being that Hitler was a control freak...Himmler didn't do anything that Hitler wasn't informed about...even Himmler's search for the Holy Grail that he and Hitler believed was given to the Arian race of the lost city of Atlantis by a mystic germanic god, and was filled with pure arian blood...and that the jews stole the Holy Grail and corrupted it.

To the contrary all the real evidence about Hitler is that he was haphazard leader and preferred to let his party subordinates fight it out so the best would emerge in the sense of social Darwinism. Control freak does not appear at all until takes over military operations during the siege of Leningrad and then still only in military matters.

War time propaganda attributed to him personally every real and imagined evil of all of Nazi Germany. And at the same time estimated he had below average intelligence. Getting passed the propaganda and seeing what really happened is quite interesting although it leads to near uniform public crucifixion for rejecting the propaganda.

Quote: What do eggs and bunnies have to do with the resurrection of Christ?

Well eggs and bunnies actually exist whereas "christ" is just fucking bullshit.

(April 12, 2013 at 2:01 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote:

(April 11, 2013 at 10:42 pm)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Passover (with variations of pascal in Romance languages) is an interesting case. As we know Moses and get out of Egypt are myths. What was Passover before the Moses myth was invented? Of was the celebration invented along with the myth?

Passover IS the myth.

Of course the Passover of Exodus is a myth. That went out with the all of Exodus. But we know Jews have been celebrating it since the 1st c. BC. I was speculating on whether the celebration came after the invention of the Exodus story or, like Christmas, was adapted from some prior custom to fit the new mythology of Exodus. There is a mention of some celebration in the Amarna letters that has been translated as Passover. I have yet to confirm it is really that name or a pious and false translation. However in the letter there is no description of it and a Persian leader is asked when to celebrate it so it does not appear even close to Passover.

Quote: The two are inextricably intertwined. During the Seder, the story of the Exodus is read from the Haggadah, along with prayers and descriptions of ritual movements, such as hand washing, wine drinking, breaking matzos, etc.

Passover contains things, like eggs and herbs, which most certainly came down from prior polytheistic celebrations, but the feast of Passover itself had no (as far as I know - Min, come in and correct me if I'm wrong) prior incarnation as a 'spring festival'. There is no dying or resurrection or celebration of sowing or anything within it. We have other holidays that celebrate such, like Sukkot for the harvest. This one was created as far as I know to celebrate a fictitious exodus.

[shudders]

It's really strange - I was going to include more information about Passover, but lately memories of the prayers and rituals in holidays and certain instances have been filtering through despite not having been to temple in ages and the sensory memory is disturbing me...so I won't dig further.

So you are in the camp that the celebration of Passover was invented after the myth of Exodus was invented. That would also put you in the pious, false translation camp for the Amarna mention. I would not off hand disagree with you but I have not found physical evidence to support it.

BTW: Spring festival would be Vernal Equinox festival. It would be very surprising if Judea were the exception in not have such a celebration.

Quote:Muhammad was a political leader who conquered lands.

That's the story they like to tell but the problem is that there is no contemporary evidence to that effect. IOW, the Byzantines and Persians did not seem to know who was "conquering" them. Somewhat odd wouldn't you say? There are occasional references in Byzantine literature to "Saracens" but this only refers to the people ( i.e. Arabs ) not to a religion. The term is first used by Ptolemy in Geographica, a second century work.

(April 12, 2013 at 2:19 pm)Undeceived Wrote: ...
Are you suggesting that people would begin an annual celebration based on nothing at all? The Exodus was passed down orally, so it must have been pretty important to the Hebrews.

See Made in Alexandria in my sig and Made in Alexandria if you want to hassle me about it.

Once one realizes, comes to accept the obvious, that Exodus and Joshua are a myth one no longer has any Hebrews as a distinct group. Once it is recognized as myth then one realizes it was created at some point in time. Then the question becomes was the celebration imposed on the people after the invention of the myth or did is exist before and was adapted to fit the new myth.

As you refer to oral tradition you are already half way there as the idea of oral tradition was invented after people could no longer claim Moses wrote Exodus and not break out laughing at the claim.

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(April 12, 2013 at 2:25 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(April 12, 2013 at 2:21 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: [Sweetest of smiles] well you do celebrate the resurrection of Christ, after all....

I'm waiting for a contemporary example of humans bearing this kind of psychology. Can you show that people actually act this way?

Contemporary? Assuming you are an American then you will recognize the inventions of Independence Day, Thanksgiving, Memorial Day, Presidents Day, MLK Day and Labor Day. Frankly the more Latinos the better so we can have Cinco de Maio as a holiday.

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(April 12, 2013 at 2:37 pm)Undeceived Wrote: I have four historical accounts and scores of 1st-2nd century references. That's more than 99.9% of historical figures. You need to show why we should not trust these accounts. Provide a contemporary scenario in which entire events were fabricated and traditions resulted from them. A scenario that you can prove.

Ignoring for the moment there is no basis for claiming those four of the 46 gospels are historical I will point out in only two of them is there a claim the tomb was entered and found empty. The other two stories have some unknown character claiming it was empty. Do you not read your own mythology?

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(April 12, 2013 at 2:44 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: I shan't go into an argument that you've surely already had ad nauseam with other forum members here. You have the Bible and and handful of references, none of which date to when your supposed messiah - not even the messiah my people spoke of, but a hastily patched up one to fit your own sniveling needs - was supposed to be around, leading to more hearsay.

Your "people"? Jews are followers of Judaism. An theist does not follow Judaism. An atheist cannot be a Jew.

Jewish people is essentially a 19th c. Zionist invention.

Speaking of a recent invention becoming an ancient belief. You have put your finger on a big one. For details see the following.

The Invention of the Jewish People [Paperback] Shlomo Sand (Author), Yael Lotan (Translator)

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(April 12, 2013 at 3:00 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Could you be more specific? Which Indian gurus? And were entire events fabricated? Did people respond with a change in lifestyle? The only case I see that matches that description is Mormonism, which arose out of warfare as much as it did Smith's words.

Without discussing your strange acceptance of only four of the 46 gospels and assuming they are what you claim they are the fact that it was new at some point shows people do in fact change based upon new events. Consider the people who changed based upon those four written by possibly known people who were of unknown character, unknown honesty and unknown integrity who wrote them for unknown reasons save perhaps for G. Luke.

There is nothing from that you can invoke to salvage Christianity that cannot be equally invoked to salvage Islam or Mormonism.

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(April 12, 2013 at 5:16 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Muhammad was a political leader who conquered lands. Most early followers were forcibly included. Dissenters, he killed: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/A..._poets.htm Islam, like all major religions, began out of action rather than hearsay.

IF one looks at the Koran and reads real history one discovers the convert or die did NOT apply to peoples of the book meaning Christians and Jews. There were Jewish generals leading Jewish armies in the spread of Islam. As most of their conquests were of Christians and as there is no historical record of forced conversions in the first few centuries the idea of spread by force is nonsense. There were some sporadic later and local attempts at forced conversion but the rulers of other areas forced them to stop it.

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(April 14, 2013 at 1:44 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Muhammad was a political leader who conquered lands.

That's the story they like to tell but the problem is that there is no contemporary evidence to that effect. IOW, the Byzantines and Persians did not seem to know who was "conquering" them. Somewhat odd wouldn't you say? There are occasional references in Byzantine literature to "Saracens" but this only refers to the people ( i.e. Arabs ) not to a religion. The term is first used by Ptolemy in Geographica, a second century work.

I might add that the only reason was succeeding was that the Byzantines and Persians had just called it a draw after a long series of expensive wars where they lost way too many of their combat age men to effectively resist.

As for the odd name Saracen consider the Hun of WWI. The war started against Austro-Hungarian empire. Draftees from Australia were brought to Europe to help fight the war so they couldn't call the bad guys Aussies. And besides, Huns had a nice ring from Atilla the Hun.

Sidebar: In 1924 Britain formally apologized for its WWI propaganda. There is still no apology for WWII propaganda even though the worst of it came from Stalin propaganda machine.

(April 14, 2013 at 1:57 am)A_Nony_Mouse Wrote: Jewish people is essentially a 19th c. Zionist invention.

I think you just flushed any point of credibility that you migh have had down the toilet. I understand your dilemma, based on your mission, to create a fantasy to justify your feelings, your anger, but one needs to be rational when speaking of recorded history. Zionism is not Judaism, and you are confusing the two.

A Jewish people, or race, being only thought of in the 19th century?

Let's just go back one more century. Queen Maria Theresa of Austria of the 18th century expelled the Jewish race from her country, saying

Quote:"I know of no greater plague than this race, which on account of its deceit, usury and avarice is driving my subjects into beggary.”

I could keep going back in time. But one should be enough. I know you hate Zionists, but that should not get in the way of writing accurately.

I don't have your forebearance,EG.

Apparently, Ferdinand and Isabella didn't know who they were expelling in the Alhambra Decree?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra_Decree#Decree

Quote:The Alhambra Decree (also known as the Edict of Expulsion) was an edict issued on 31 March 1492 by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon) ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Kingdoms of Castile and Aragon (not from the Kingdom of Navarre) and its territories and possessions by 31 July of that year.[1]