(April 22, 2013 at 10:43 am)Drich Wrote: Neither does God. I was just giving you all an oppertunity to express what you thought to be a viable option to Hell rather than just complain about how unfair God is.

This, and the way you phrased your OP makes me think that you can't imagine any other possibility, like the idea of simply not torturing nonbelievers isn't even something that has crossed your mind: "Of course god would send you to hell. I literally can't think of another thing that could be done." If that's true, it says a lot about you.

But I'd remind you that you consider your god to be at least more intelligent than I, which means he'd clearly be able to figure out this simple "not hellfire" variant of an afterlife. You do seem to give your deity way little credit.

Quote:I honestly think 'going to the stars' is what we are meant to do for eternity.

When science eventually takes us there under our own power, your god will have to think up a better reward for mindless obeisance.

Quote:The universe does not change, you are right there. However what I can not phathom is how persumptious the idea is that 'we' as a people believe we have it all figured out only after a few hundred years of searching. Or at least figured out enough so you can claim that your version of reality is the only one.

Said the man claiming to have exclusive knowledge of the creator of the universe and everything therein... Who, exactly, is claiming to have it all figured out, again?

Quote:Again because most of you complain without any point or end goal.

If I'm getting stabbed in the chest, do I really need to give the stabber some alternative course of action he could be taking? Why is "don't fucking stab me!" not sufficient direction?

Quote: If you truly believed that this God had no power I believe there would not be a discussion. I that is why I believe that there is enough doubt in your (generally speaking) mind to want to argue the fairness of Hell.

Right, that's why all my discussions of Doctor Who speak to my secret belief in Time Lords.

One day, Doctor... *caresses toy sonic screwdriver lovingly, with a sigh.*

Quote:because, if God can be found 'unjust' or 'immoral' then one is morally obligated NOT to follow Him, thus giving you the appearance of moral justification/Judgement day defense strageity. Which makes me wonder if God's 'a' plan is Hell for those who do not want to be with Him, then what would be the pop morallity version of the 'a' plan.

Are you fucking kidding me? One only needs to look to Abraham following the order to sacrifice his son to see that an immoral god does not demand that his credulous peons stop following him.

Also, you're doing that "telling me what I believe" thing that I hate so much. Well, while you're at it, would you like to extend it out a little? Tell me why I'm not planning to thwart the afterlife plans of the muslim god I secretly believe in too? I mean, seriously: you're taking a big leap by assuming our "Secret beliefs" are necessarily christian denominational.

Quote:I could provide you with proof, but it would only be a one way ticket.. That is why I refered you to A/S/K as luke 11 point out.

What a great way to cover up for a lie: "I could show you proof, but I won't for whatever reason."

Quote:Not to mention Hell is a void, so unless those people can call into existance all that is needed, then they will be SOL.

Why can't we convince Satan to do it? I've never understood why he plays into god's hands by making hell unpleasant...

(April 22, 2013 at 12:54 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I'm struggling to understand your thinking here. You seem to be asking me for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

If the problem does not exist for you then why do you assume that the question is for you?

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(April 22, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:I could provide you with proof, but it would only be a one way ticket.

No, you can't Drippy. All you can do is spout useless pseudo-philosophical babble about your sky-daddy. That is not evidence.


That is bullshit.

Actually I have the ability to send you to the after life was my point. But if I did that, your 'proof' would only be a one way ticket, meaning i could not bring you back. That is why I suggested that you seek proof from God rather than from me for the only 'proof' I can provide will be absolute and too little too late for you to act upon it.

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(April 22, 2013 at 2:33 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(April 22, 2013 at 10:43 am)Drich Wrote: However what I can not phathom is how persumptious the idea is that 'we' as a people believe we have it all figured out only after a few hundred years of searching. Or at least figured out enough so you can claim that your version of reality is the only one.

So you wish to claim that the believer that believes in something made up in a few instances of human imagination has access to a potentially more accurate version of reality?

Begs the question. If you want an answer rephrase.

(April 24, 2013 at 10:04 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 22, 2013 at 1:11 pm)Minimalist Wrote: No, you can't Drippy. All you can do is spout useless pseudo-philosophical babble about your sky-daddy. That is not evidence.


That is bullshit.

Actually I have the ability to send you to the after life was my point. But if I did that, your 'proof' would only be a one way ticket, meaning i could not bring you back. That is why I suggested that you seek proof from God rather than from me for the only 'proof' I can provide will be absolute and too little too late for you to act upon it.

Meaning there's no independent verification of this "after-life" thing... why do you people insist in it?

(April 24, 2013 at 10:04 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 22, 2013 at 2:33 pm)pocaracas Wrote: So you wish to claim that the believer that believes in something made up in a few instances of human imagination has access to a potentially more accurate version of reality?

Begs the question. If you want an answer rephrase.

I got all the answer I expected. thanks.

(April 18, 2013 at 10:06 am)Drich Wrote: If you believe Hell to be immoral or just plain wrong, then what would you suggest God do with those who do not want to serve Him for eternity?

I suggest that he comes to earth once a decade and says to people "Hey you really are all going to burn in hell forever if you don't do all the ten commandments constantly, just a reminder"

That way people will know it exists and not get punished by burning forever for say for example stealing a mars bar or having sex outside of marriage, just because they didn't believe in hell to begin with.

(April 24, 2013 at 10:04 am)Drich Wrote: If the problem does not exist for you then why do you assume that the question is for you?

Because you asked me. Directly, in fact.

You wrote:

Quote:I was just giving you all an oppertunity to express what you thought to be a viable option to Hell rather than just complain about how unfair God is.

I then asked you to clarify what you're thinking. I wrote:

Quote:If I understand you correctly, this is the "what am I going to do with you" speech. The reason you're never going to get anywhere with this is because there is nothing to justify.

To rephrase somewhat, if it helps make things clear, is you seem to be asking what I think my punishment should be for (1) existing and (2) not believing someone's favorite brand (among many other brands) of wild supernatural claims that are both inconsistent with the natural world we observe and completely unsupported by even a shred of evidence.

So why do you think there even needs to be a punishment?

If not hell?....

Being trapped with Drich in the Phantom Zone.

(April 23, 2013 at 5:48 am)Esquilax Wrote: This, and the way you phrased your OP makes me think that you can't imagine any other possibility, like the idea of simply not torturing nonbelievers isn't even something that has crossed your mind: "Of course god would send you to hell. I literally can't think of another thing that could be done." If that's true, it says a lot about you.

As a bible based Christian I do not have the luxuary of changing things around simply because they do not fit with my personal morality. If the bible says Hell is a bad place then I must teach/believe Hell to be a bad place.

Quote:But I'd remind you that you consider your god to be at least more intelligent than I, which means he'd clearly be able to figure out this simple "not hellfire" variant of an afterlife. You do seem to give your deity way little credit.

What if He deems Hell a suitable place for those who have sinned? Why would he look to resolve anything?

Quote:When science eventually takes us there under our own power, your god will have to think up a better reward for mindless obeisance.

Science has only taken a handfull of people anywhere outside the bounds of of this planet. I believe God is offering total independance for His followers to explore all of His creation.

Quote:Said the man claiming to have exclusive knowledge of the creator of the universe and everything therein... Who, exactly, is claiming to have it all figured out, again?

If the God of creation tells you 'x' is true, then 'x' is true. Realistically what else do you have to go on? What other people observe about 'x' for a single point and time in space?

Quote:If I'm getting stabbed in the chest, do I really need to give the stabber some alternative course of action he could be taking? Why is "don't fucking stab me!" not sufficient direction?

The thing is we are all slated to be 'stabbed in the chest.' The good news is that we have all be provided with armor if we do not want to die. The only thing is we have to put it on ourselves.

Quote:Are you fucking kidding me? One only needs to look to Abraham following the order to sacrifice his son to see that an immoral god does not demand that his credulous peons stop following him.

Red herring, or did you stop reading the story half way through? If so keep reading.

Quote:What a great way to cover up for a lie: "I could show you proof, but I won't for whatever reason."

What I told Minnie was the only 'absolute proof' I can offer is to kill you and send you to the after life so you can see for yourself. The only thing is that it will be a one way ticket. So why not ask God as out lined in luke 11 to provide you with 'absolute proof' while you are still in this life?

Quote:Why can't we convince Satan to do it? I've never understood why he plays into god's hands by making hell unpleasant...

Your confusing Greek mythos with the bible. Satanis not the 'god' of the under world. The fires of Hell were stoked and made eternal to punish satan. He like everyone else there will be lost in greif and is there to be punished. While 'we' will be consumed by the Hell fire Satan will burn forever. Hell is not Satan's realm, this world this life in the cloest thing satan has to a kingdom. (That is why bad things happen to good people as many of you ask.) If this were not true then the temptations he offered Christ would be meaningless.

(April 24, 2013 at 11:28 am)Drich Wrote:

(April 23, 2013 at 5:48 am)Esquilax Wrote: This, and the way you phrased your OP makes me think that you can't imagine any other possibility, like the idea of simply not torturing nonbelievers isn't even something that has crossed your mind: "Of course god would send you to hell. I literally can't think of another thing that could be done." If that's true, it says a lot about you.

As a bible based Christian I do not have the luxuary of changing things around simply because they do not fit with my personal morality. If the bible says Hell is a bad place then I must teach/believe Hell to be a bad place.

Quote:But I'd remind you that you consider your god to be at least more intelligent than I, which means he'd clearly be able to figure out this simple "not hellfire" variant of an afterlife. You do seem to give your deity way little credit.

What if He deems Hell a suitable place for those who have sinned? Why would he look to resolve anything?

Quote:When science eventually takes us there under our own power, your god will have to think up a better reward for mindless obeisance.

Science has only taken a handfull of people anywhere outside the bounds of of this planet. I believe God is offering total independance for His followers to explore all of His creation.

Quote:Said the man claiming to have exclusive knowledge of the creator of the universe and everything therein... Who, exactly, is claiming to have it all figured out, again?

If the God of creation tells you 'x' is true, then 'x' is true. Realistically what else do you have to go on? What other people observe about 'x' for a single point and time in space?

Quote:If I'm getting stabbed in the chest, do I really need to give the stabber some alternative course of action he could be taking? Why is "don't fucking stab me!" not sufficient direction?

The thing is we are all slated to be 'stabbed in the chest.' The good news is that we have all be provided with armor if we do not want to die. The only thing is we have to put it on ourselves.

Quote:Are you fucking kidding me? One only needs to look to Abraham following the order to sacrifice his son to see that an immoral god does not demand that his credulous peons stop following him.

Red herring, or did you stop reading the story half way through? If so keep reading.

Quote:What a great way to cover up for a lie: "I could show you proof, but I won't for whatever reason."

What I told Minnie was the only 'absolute proof' I can offer is to kill you and send you to the after life so you can see for yourself. The only thing is that it will be a one way ticket. So why not ask God as out lined in luke 11 to provide you with 'absolute proof' while you are still in this life?

Quote:Why can't we convince Satan to do it? I've never understood why he plays into god's hands by making hell unpleasant...

Your confusing Greek mythos with the bible. Satanis not the 'god' of the under world. The fires of Hell were stoked and made eternal to punish satan. He like everyone else there will be lost in greif and is there to be punished. While 'we' will be consumed by the Hell fire Satan will burn forever. Hell is not Satan's realm, this world this life in the cloest thing satan has to a kingdom. (That is why bad things happen to good people as many of you ask.) If this were not true then the temptations he offered Christ would be meaningless.

Where did you get all this amazing info from?

So was satan in hell while he was tempting Christ or was that a day trip out that god allowed?

So bad things happen to good people because the earth is nearly satans kingdom, while he is burning forever in hell, except when god allows him to come out and tempt his son. Seems simple enough.

(April 24, 2013 at 11:06 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: To rephrase somewhat, if it helps make things clear, is you seem to be asking what I think my punishment should be for (1) existing and (2) not believing someone's favorite brand (among many other brands) of wild supernatural claims that are both inconsistent with the natural world we observe and completely unsupported by even a shred of evidence.

So why do you think there even needs to be a punishment?

Because the dude who put all of this together said so.

(April 24, 2013 at 11:30 am)paulpablo Wrote: So was satan in hell while he was tempting Christ or was that a day trip out that god allowed?

As far as I could ever tell, the Bible talks about Satan eventually being sent to Hell. But otherwise he is free to roam the world and do as much damage as he can. The Bible even indicates that he had freedom to roam in Heaven; the book of Job begins with him wandering about up there, and the book of Revelations implies that a future war in Heaven would result in Satan being cast down to Earth, never to return.

If you're wondering why the Devil is left alive after his part in introducing sin into the world, you're not alone.