I'm posting in the Atheist section because a lot of people say Deism has more in common with Atheism then it does with Theism. I shall now proceed to make a simple argument for a Deist G-d.

1. Everything in our natural world AKA universe is either matter or space time.

2. Nothing in our universe can be created or destroyed. (I'm aware of quantum fluctuation and the creation of virtual particles but I do not count that as creation because the new matter is not stable and conservation laws are still upheld.)

3. Therefore the universe which is made up of matter and space time cannot of created itself via the laws of physics alone because the laws of physics don't permit such self creation.

4. Therefore the universe was created or a better term caused by something which is not composed of space time or matter.

5. This thing that must be the cause of the universe existence which is not composed of matter or spacetime is commonly called G-d.

Can anyone refute this proof of a first cause or Deism G-d?

If you cannot refute Deism then I don't see why one should call themselves an Atheist.

<yawn>



Except in your case it is step #4.

By step 2 you mean "2. Nothing in our universe can be created or destroyed. (I'm aware of quantum fluctuation and the creation of virtual particles but I do not count that as creation because the new matter is not stable and conservation laws are still upheld.)" or is this some forum terminology idk. Anyway miracle is defined by the natural order being superseded. I'm not arguing that.

(May 8, 2013 at 8:43 pm)xdrgnh Wrote: 1. Everything in our natural world AKA universe is either matter or space time.

... or energy.

(May 8, 2013 at 9:07 pm)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 8:43 pm)xdrgnh Wrote: 1. Everything in our natural world AKA universe is either matter or space time.

... or energy.

Energy is just a name we call a combination of physical units. All things in physics are just combinations of mass, space and time. Energy is not a distinct thing. Though due to relativity space and time are related to each other via the Lorentz Transform so it's called space time. A quanta of energy the photon is itself matter.

You can't refute the deist god, but that doesn't mean you should believe in him. There's no evidence for him either. I'm only a deist because it makes sense to me. I don't expect it to make sense to anyone else.

(May 8, 2013 at 9:07 pm)Rayaan Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 8:43 pm)xdrgnh Wrote: 1. Everything in our natural world AKA universe is either matter or space time.

... or energy.

...or thought and sensation.

---

I predict that someone will say the universe always existed, which is irrelevant to a cosmological argument, but they'll trot it out anyway.

You can't have scientific evidence for G-d because he is not composed of space time or matter the exact things that physics deals with. However you can make logical arguments to show that something besides matter, space and time exists. The absolute creation or cause of the universe may not be a scientific question doesn't mean it doesn't have a absolute answer.

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(May 8, 2013 at 9:17 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 9:07 pm)Rayaan Wrote: ... or energy.

...or thought and sensation.

---

I predict that someone will say the universe always existed, which is irrelevant to a cosmological argument, but they'll trot it out anyway.

I just started learning about metaphysics and the whole mind body problem. As a budding physicist I'd like to argue that thought and sensation is matter because it can only exist in the objective natural world. Though I don't want to argue about the nature of objective reality.

(May 8, 2013 at 8:43 pm)xdrgnh Wrote: 5. This thing that must be the cause of the universe existence which is not composed of matter or spacetime is commonly called G-d.

You've skipped a few steps here, like showing us why the cause of the universe is a being, let alone something conscious, let alone one that created the universe through a willful act. Perhaps it was simply a random, natural thing that happened in a pre- Big Bang universe; no matter how rare such an occurrence could be, it would only need to happen once. Perhaps the universe is metastable and has always existed in one form or another. Perhaps multiverse theory is true and we spawned off of a parallel reality.

Quote:If you cannot refute Deism then I don't see why one should call themselves an Atheist.

I call myself an atheist because I don't know what reality's first cause is, nor if it even has one, yet I recognize that I'm not justified in leaping to any conclusions about it before I do know. Yes, the deist god is a tempting thing, in an unfalsifiable kind of way, but it's not nearly as natural a conclusion as you're making it out to be; you can't prove it, nor can you disprove the alternatives I've presented above.

That's because neither of us has sufficient information. What's so wrong about just admitting that?

(May 8, 2013 at 9:17 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 8, 2013 at 9:07 pm)Rayaan Wrote: ... or energy.

...or thought and sensation.

... or ...


cats.