(May 26, 2013 at 5:12 pm)Origen Wrote: First, Jesus did not become man to be killed. The crucifixion was a result of the rejection of Jesus' message by his people. If Jesus' message had been accepted salvation would have come to humanity in another form. God is not a blood diety, this was revealed in the story of Issac and Abraham, when God stops the killing of Issac; this was a big step forward in an era when human sacrifice was the norm. God did not want the blood of Issac, he certainly did not want the blood of Jesus.

Jesus became man to bring us the kingdom of God, he did this through preaching, through example, through bodily and spiritual healing. A consequence of his ministry was rabid rejection of him by the powerful in his society, this led to his execution. So what's the big deal you ask, if he knew he was going to resurrect what kind of a sacrifice was it. Well, Jesus was not a super hero, he was as truly human as any of us, he felt the fear, the pain and the abandonment each of us would feel in that situation. He also had to struggle against the temptation to skip the whole thing and ask God to rescue him. He tells Pilate "my kingdom is not of this world, but I am a king." So his death was not a walk in the park, there was fear, there was anguish. There was the added burden of being rejected by his own creation. There was the pain of knowing in a way he had failed, his teaching wasn't enough humanity ultimately needed his death. Painful enough for you.

Let me give you small example from human experience. Take someone who has a curable cancer, but has to go through a harsh treatment to get there. Does this person suffer any less because the odds are in her favour? Do you say to this person, you're not really suffering because chances are you will live?

Your approach involves making Jesus look like an innocent little child who suffered a a whole lot. This is unimpressive and greatly undermined by the attribute he allegedly possessed: divinity. So back to square one we go: God sacrificed himself to himself so that he could convince himself to forgive his creation which he knew would rebel from the moment he willed this universe.

Where is the deposit? Whom is it that has been paid at the expense of someone else's sacrifice? Where is the flow of money? The net effect is zero, zilch, nada because the Christian god is playing with itself. Feel free to interpret that in more than one way...

/end of

Quote:Jesus became man to bring us the kingdom of God, he did this through preaching, through example, through bodily and spiritual healing.

Yeah - that's the story that has evolved. No one alive at the time seemed to know fuckall about it.

I find that odd. You, I suspect, will grasp onto any apologetic bullshit solution to that problem which comes along.

(May 4, 2013 at 4:38 am)homocidlefreak Wrote: Many Christians will say that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice....the thing is.....he came back to life and supposedly used super human strength to push the boulder blocking his path. Therefore, if he came back to life....what was he sacrificing?

the sacrifice of Christ is that "pure consciousness" entered our sensual desires to be activated by a realization of a need for a higher desire than fulfilling the five senses: Once we get to that point and realize we don't have anything left to experience through five senses alone, we become ready for nature's higher level of consciousness or God consciousness. Once this happens in us, we are ready for an evolution of 'FORM' (beyond sensual or flesh and blood formation): Those who discovered this experience wrote it down and evolved it into stories so the message would not get lost and be available for those who were ready for it. The others or the rest of the people who see Jesus as a means to save their present form of consciousness and take it to the next life will actually lose what they gained here; hence he who looses his life for my sake shall find it but he who hangs on to his life shall loose it.

Someone is digging up on history...
Welcome, Firstruth... care to make an intro thread here: https://atheistforums.org/forum-11.html

(November 22, 2013 at 6:58 am)Firstruth Wrote:

(May 4, 2013 at 4:38 am)homocidlefreak Wrote: Many Christians will say that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice....the thing is.....he came back to life and supposedly used super human strength to push the boulder blocking his path. Therefore, if he came back to life....what was he sacrificing?

the sacrifice of Christ is that "pure consciousness" entered our sensual desires to be activated by a realization of a need for a higher desire than fulfilling the five senses: Once we get to that point and realize we don't have anything left to experience through five senses alone, we become ready for nature's higher level of consciousness or God consciousness. Once this happens in us, we are ready for an evolution of 'FORM' (beyond sensual or flesh and blood formation): Those who discovered this experience wrote it down and evolved it into stories so the message would not get lost and be available for those who were ready for it. The others or the rest of the people who see Jesus as a means to save their present form of consciousness and take it to the next life will actually lose what they gained here; hence he who looses his life for my sake shall find it but he who hangs on to his life shall loose it.

Whut?

(November 22, 2013 at 7:21 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(November 22, 2013 at 6:58 am)Firstruth Wrote: the sacrifice of Christ is that "pure consciousness" entered our sensual desires to be activated by a realization of a need for a higher desire than fulfilling the five senses: Once we get to that point and realize we don't have anything left to experience through five senses alone, we become ready for nature's higher level of consciousness or God consciousness. Once this happens in us, we are ready for an evolution of 'FORM' (beyond sensual or flesh and blood formation): Those who discovered this experience wrote it down and evolved it into stories so the message would not get lost and be available for those who were ready for it. The others or the rest of the people who see Jesus as a means to save their present form of consciousness and take it to the next life will actually lose what they gained here; hence he who looses his life for my sake shall find it but he who hangs on to his life shall loose it.

Whut?

Heh. It reads like a bastardized Buddhism, only less coherent and with the same lack of evidence. A 'Gnostic', I think.

Necroposting makes me mad!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y16uKeTuBWQ

Propisiartory sacrifice is not the only answer, although it seems to be the most popular one. Prior to Calvin the main emphasis was on Christ's victory. We was able to overcome every temptation and endure every hardship, including betrayal and unjust persecution. As such He earned his place as the "Strongman" capable of giving us victory also.

(November 22, 2013 at 2:26 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: He was able to overcome every temptation and endure every hardship, including betrayal and unjust persecution. As such He earned his place as the "Strongman" capable of giving us victory also.

Precisely the type of heroic plot twist common for all fiction novels.

(November 22, 2013 at 2:28 pm)Kitanetos Wrote:

(November 22, 2013 at 2:26 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: He was able to overcome every temptation and endure every hardship, including betrayal and unjust persecution. As such He earned his place as the "Strongman" capable of giving us victory also.

Precisely the type of heroic plot twist common for all fiction novels.

if Jesus is ever born anywhere but in our heart, he would have to be fiction: He had a mother for a virgin and a Spirit father:


But because Jesus is the NAME of the MAN God forms out of himself and our heart, it is our heart that is saved hence mankind becomes a new heart that is able to renew the mind from that heart that gave birth to Jesus the Christ at the appointed time in their evolution, hence their 'last generation'. This means the last time he is born purely a physical being and how has become part of a great big system of witnesses whose EYE has seen him in the SPIRIT with their single eye that brings light to the whole body: That single eye is activated at the level of the pineal gland within.