(December 23, 2013 at 3:51 am)savedwheat Wrote: I would think that if you existed before time and space and were uncreated (that is, not created) you would be invisible. It seems to follow since you would be outside of nature.

Prove it

So what would convince is what I am asking?

Well there you go. Now we're getting somewhere. If god is invisible, he might just be an empty room. Or water. A vacuum?



(Telling me god is invisible reinforces my suspicion that neither a useful description nor evidence will be forthcoming.)

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(December 23, 2013 at 3:42 am)savedwheat Wrote: Are you saying nothing will ever convince you?

May I ask what has convinced you?

(December 23, 2013 at 3:55 am)savedwheat Wrote: So what would convince is what I am asking?

Already told you. But instead of working on that proof, you think that because you cannot prove it I must pick an easier proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.

I think an empty room still has particles from nature in it so that would not be uncreated before time and space.

(December 23, 2013 at 4:01 am)savedwheat Wrote: I think an empty room still has particles from nature in it so that would not be uncreated before time and space.

You really don't know either, huh?

I am sure empty space has particles in it so that can't qualify as uncreated.

(December 23, 2013 at 4:03 am)savedwheat Wrote: I am sure empty space has particles in it so that can't qualify as uncreated.

What convinces you that your conclusion in the above follows from.your premise?

Hate to keep putting you on the spot, but after we finish ruling out what god isn't would it be possible to get a useful description so that on the off chance that god does show up we can all get saved or whatever?

Edited to say I sure hope god doesn't turn out to be my wife. (She would be impossible to live with.)

I admit I don't have the scientific wherewithal but I have seen lots of documentaries and scientists seemingly unified that dark matter and dark energy have particles in it, just as there are particles in the room you are in right now.