(June 5, 2014 at 9:49 am)Confused Ape Wrote: How are you going to educate Francis Collins when Richard Dawkins failed?

I don't really see this as relevant. Francis Collins is already living in a brainwashed mindset, evidently. He uses the same old religious cop-outs to avoid having to actually scrutinise his own beliefs. I have no doubt if he applied scientific reason to his own beliefs objectively, he'd come to the only rational conclusion. The problem is he obviously doesn't want to do that. That said, Dawkins as far as I know, isn't the be all and end all of good education. Nor should any weight be given to his ability to educate simply because he couldn't convince a guy already brainwashed that his beliefs are moronic. That's no easy feat, and of all the debates I've seen, not once have I seen someone suddenly concede defeat and say "you know what mate, I think I'm wrong, my beliefs are bollocks". That doesn't happen, so again, don't really see what point you're making...

Unless I'm missing something.

(June 5, 2014 at 9:49 am)Confused Ape Wrote:

(June 5, 2014 at 9:31 am)Napoléon Wrote: What we really want is to educate people to the extent that they aren't stupid enough to fall into the old religion trap in the first place.

How are you going to educate Francis Collins when Richard Dawkins failed?

God vs. Science - A debate between Richard Dawkins and Francis Collins

Oooh, liking the debate so far. I've never understood why more xtians don't take Coliins' stance toward cosmology and evolution. It is the tendency toward literalism that is obviously ridiculous.

However, I also don't understand Collins' assumption of a grey zone outside of nature where god can always have lurked until it got the itch to create. That has no appeal to me and I agree with Dawkins it does not 'explain' anything.

(June 5, 2014 at 10:51 am)whateverist Wrote: However, I also don't understand Collins' assumption of a grey zone outside of nature where god can always have lurked until it got the itch to create. That has no appeal to me and I agree with Dawkins it does not 'explain' anything.

It's just a fucking cop-out for him to believe in fairies and magic.

"Science can't explain it because it's 'outside of this universe' -- therefore I don't have to prove it -- you can't say I'm wrong because you can't prove me wrong -- you have to have faith"

This level of intellectual dishonesty pisses me off.

(June 5, 2014 at 7:46 am)Chas Wrote: Yes, but removing Islam would be even better.

Better yet, have Muslims and christians annihliate each other, so not only would the world benefit from their eradication, but the very manner of their eradication would also serve as a particularly salutary lesson for posterity.

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(June 5, 2014 at 8:15 am)Chas Wrote:

(June 5, 2014 at 7:50 am)Cato Wrote: I can appreciate the sentiment, but I'm not sure about this. There are a half billion more Christians.

Yabut, Islam makes up for it in virulence.

Yes, but Christians make up for it by being in a far better position to directly strangle human progress in parts of the world where much of this progress is being made.

If Islam is like foul smelling gangerene in the limbs of humanity, Christianity is like a aggressively malignant tumor in the brain.

(June 5, 2014 at 10:45 am)Napoléon Wrote: I don't really see this as relevant. Francis Collins is already living in a brainwashed mindset, evidently. He uses the same old religious cop-outs to avoid having to actually scrutinise his own beliefs. I have no doubt if he applied scientific reason to his own beliefs objectively, he'd come to the only rational conclusion. The problem is he obviously doesn't want to do that.

Unless I'm missing something.

I posted an interview with him in another topic where he explained his religious history. His parents were only nominally Christian and when he went to college he because a very enthusiastic atheist. Around 15 years later when he was a doctor he was impressed by the comfort that some religious dying patients found in their faith. He wondered why and eventually ended up converting to Christianity. Yes, he's in a brainwashed mindset but he brainwashed himself.

There are quantum physicists who are into quantum mysticism. Jesuit astronomers at the cutting edge of astronomy are still looking for God in everything. Nobody really knows why humans evolved to have religious belief but it seems to be driving the majority of the population to search for something to believe in. Thousands of people in Britain have abandoned Christianity but they haven't all become atheists because NeoPaganism is very popular.

Quote:That said, Dawkins as far as I know, isn't the be all and end all of good education. Nor should any weight be given to his ability to educate simply because he couldn't convince a guy already brainwashed that his beliefs are moronic.

True, Nap. As anyone who has worked with people who suffer from addictions knows before they can be helped they have to want help.

Religion is a horrible addiction.

(June 5, 2014 at 11:26 am)Confused Ape Wrote: Nobody really knows why humans evolved to have religious belief but it seems to be driving the majority of the population to search for something to believe in.

I'm no scientist, but in my not-so-professional opinion, it comes down to people fearing death, and not wanting to accept that life simply ends when we die.

(June 5, 2014 at 12:06 pm)Napoléon Wrote: I'm no scientist, but in my not-so-professional opinion, it comes down to people fearing death, and not wanting to accept that life simply ends when we die.

It could be a bit more complicated than that. Neuroscience is discovering that the human brain could have a lot to do with religious belief. A good introduction to this is the BBC documentary God On The Brain

It seems that Shamanism is the world's oldest religion.

Quote:Shamanism (/ˈʃɑːmən/ shah-mən or /ˈʃeɪmən/ shay-mən) is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world.[2] A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.[3]

Shamanic practices may originate as early as the Paleolithic, predating all organized religions,[84][85] and certainly as early as the Neolithic period.[85] Early anthropologist studies theorise that shamanism developed as a magic practice to ensure a successful hunt or gathering of food. Evidence in caves and drawings on walls support indications that shamanism started during the Paleolithic era. One such picture featured a half-animal, with the face and legs of a man, with antlers and a tail of a stag.[86]

There's still the question of how they discovered altered states of consciousness, of course, but the human brain works in mysterious ways.

Quote:An entheogen ("generating the divine within")[59] is a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic, or spiritual context.[60] Entheogens have been used in a ritualized context for thousands of years; their religious significance is well established in anthropological and modern evidences. Examples of traditional entheogens include: peyote, psilocybin mushrooms, uncured tobacco, cannabis, ayahuasca, Salvia divinorum, Tabernanthe iboga, Ipomoea tricolor, and Amanita muscaria.

Entheogen - Africa

Quote:The best-known entheogen-using culture of Africa is the Bwitists, who used a preparation of the root bark of Tabernanthe iboga.[32] Although the ancient Egyptians may have been using the sacred blue lily plant in some of their religious rituals or just symbolically, it has been suggested that Egyptian religion once revolved around the ritualistic ingestion of the far more psychoactive Psilocybe cubensis mushroom, and that the Egyptian White Crown, Triple Crown, and Atef Crown were evidently designed to represent pin-stages of this mushroom.[33] There is also evidence for the use of psilocybin mushrooms in Côte d'Ivoire.[34] Numerous other plants used in shamanic ritual in Africa, such as Silene capensis sacred to the Xhosa, are yet to be investigated by western science. A recent revitalization has occurred in the study of southern African psychoactives and entheogens (Mitchell and Hudson 2004; Sobiecki 2002, 2008, 2012).[35]

Psilocybe cubensis

Quote:Effects usually start after approximately 20–60 minutes (depending on method of ingestion and stomach contents) and may last from four to ten hours, depending on dosage. Visual distortions often occur, including walls that seem to breathe, a vivid enhancement of colors and the animation of organic shapes. At higher doses, experiences tend to be less social and more entheogenic, often intense and spiritual in nature.[citation needed]

Maybe religion started because our distant ancestors decided to try a new mushroom for lunch.

(June 5, 2014 at 11:13 am)Chuck Wrote:

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(June 5, 2014 at 7:46 am)Chas Wrote: Yes, but removing Islam would be even better.

Better yet, have Muslims and christians annihliate each other, so not only would the world benefit from their eradication, but the very manner of their eradication would also serve as a particularly salutary lesson for posterity.

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(June 5, 2014 at 8:15 am)Chas Wrote: Yabut, Islam makes up for it in virulence.

Yes, but Christians make up for it by being in a far better position to directly strangle human progress in parts of the world where much of this progress is being made.

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If Islam is like foul smelling gangerene in the limbs of humanity, Christianity is like a aggressively malignant tumor in the brain.

You make a good argument.

(June 5, 2014 at 3:18 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(June 5, 2014 at 12:06 pm)Napoléon Wrote: I'm no scientist, but in my not-so-professional opinion, it comes down to people fearing death, and not wanting to accept that life simply ends when we die.

It could be a bit more complicated than that. Neuroscience is discovering that the human brain could have a lot to do with religious belief. A good introduction to this is the BBC documentary God On The Brain

It seems that Shamanism is the world's oldest religion.

Quote:Shamanism (/ˈʃɑːmən/ shah-mən or /ˈʃeɪmən/ shay-mən) is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world.[2] A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.[3]

Shamanic practices may originate as early as the Paleolithic, predating all organized religions,[84][85] and certainly as early as the Neolithic period.[85] Early anthropologist studies theorise that shamanism developed as a magic practice to ensure a successful hunt or gathering of food. Evidence in caves and drawings on walls support indications that shamanism started during the Paleolithic era. One such picture featured a half-animal, with the face and legs of a man, with antlers and a tail of a stag.[86]

There's still the question of how they discovered altered states of consciousness, of course, but the human brain works in mysterious ways.

Quote:An entheogen ("generating the divine within")[59] is a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic, or spiritual context.[60] Entheogens have been used in a ritualized context for thousands of years; their religious significance is well established in anthropological and modern evidences. Examples of traditional entheogens include: peyote, psilocybin mushrooms, uncured tobacco, cannabis, ayahuasca, Salvia divinorum, Tabernanthe iboga, Ipomoea tricolor, and Amanita muscaria.

Entheogen - Africa

Quote:The best-known entheogen-using culture of Africa is the Bwitists, who used a preparation of the root bark of Tabernanthe iboga.[32] Although the ancient Egyptians may have been using the sacred blue lily plant in some of their religious rituals or just symbolically, it has been suggested that Egyptian religion once revolved around the ritualistic ingestion of the far more psychoactive Psilocybe cubensis mushroom, and that the Egyptian White Crown, Triple Crown, and Atef Crown were evidently designed to represent pin-stages of this mushroom.[33] There is also evidence for the use of psilocybin mushrooms in Côte d'Ivoire.[34] Numerous other plants used in shamanic ritual in Africa, such as Silene capensis sacred to the Xhosa, are yet to be investigated by western science. A recent revitalization has occurred in the study of southern African psychoactives and entheogens (Mitchell and Hudson 2004; Sobiecki 2002, 2008, 2012).[35]

Psilocybe cubensis

Quote:Effects usually start after approximately 20–60 minutes (depending on method of ingestion and stomach contents) and may last from four to ten hours, depending on dosage. Visual distortions often occur, including walls that seem to breathe, a vivid enhancement of colors and the animation of organic shapes. At higher doses, experiences tend to be less social and more entheogenic, often intense and spiritual in nature.[citation needed]

Maybe religion started because our distant ancestors decided to try a new mushroom for lunch.

The discovery of the alter states of kind by early people isn't hard to explain at all. Hypnosis is how it works, and when some people are hypnotized and then left alone it can induce visions based on the stimuli in daily life. In fact we often self hypnotize are selves to some degree when are falling asleep hence sometimes your leg may randomly twitch or something like that.
Now some people are more easily hypnotized then others and will fall in a trance much faster. So what likely happened was someone was going to sleep one night and slide into a trance state that induced visions. Combine that with ignorant hunter gather peoples and the human predisposition to see patterns and Viola! You have Shamanism.