(June 6, 2014 at 3:32 pm)mickiel Wrote: When will you see the evidence?

When will you actually provide some. No, that stuff you're pulling out of your ass doesn't count!

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(June 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm)mickiel Wrote: I already mentioned the fine tuning of all creation as being deliberate, that was ignored and not accepted.

It was dismissed because it's bullshit. The apparent fine tuning of the universe is wrong. It is we who are fine tuned for our infinitesimal niche in the universe. Most of the universe (99.99999999......) is instantly lethal to human life.

(June 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm)mickiel Wrote: No matter how many light years the sun is away from the earth, if god had not placed them both exactly where he did, they could not co-exist.

Light-years? Did you really say that? Do you even know what a light-year is?!? Besides, your argument is bullshit anyway. Venus is 30% closer to the sun than we are. Run-away greenhouse is the reason it inhospitable to life, not it's proximity to the sun.

(June 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm)mickiel Wrote: That is designed purpose, conscious intent- its ridiculous to claim this is not evidence of god! I may as well be debating a wall.

Prove it!

(June 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm)mickiel Wrote: If we did not have a digestive system, we all would die. If we had no heart, we could not exist. if we had no blood, we would not exist. If this is not evidence of purpose and design, I just don't know what is!

It's evidence of evolution, which you claim to believe (more bullshit).

(June 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm)mickiel Wrote: Evolution did't doit, emergant nature did not do this, it was all in place when the universe was made

The universe is 13.7 BILLION years old. Humanity, around 150,000. We did NOT have all our biological systems already in place when the universe came into existence (was created in your bullshit-speak). For fucks sake, our fucking star didn't even develop until 4.7 billion years ago (9 billion years after the universe got started for the hard-at-thinking).

(June 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm)mickiel Wrote: put in its place; our bodies had a digestive system from our beginning; the first man had a heart,. a head, a torso and blood; those things did NOT evolve over time.

Yes, they did. Maybe you've got evidence for something to the contrary? Actual evidence, not that stuff you're pulling out of your ass. There's a Nobel Prize waiting for you if you can come up with a testable, verifiable and, let's not forget, falsifiable theory that replaces the theory of evolution.

(June 6, 2014 at 3:50 pm)mickiel Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 3:34 pm)Cato Wrote: When you provide it. You have yet to demonstrate the validity of anything you have asserted here.

This is an atheistic rehersed response, just like the Christians do when they debate.

No, it's not. It's a sincere request that you provide evidence. Something refuse to do.

(June 6, 2014 at 10:02 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 3:32 pm)mickiel Wrote: When will you see the evidence?

When will you actually provide some. No, that stuff you're pulling out of your ass doesn't count!

I am willing to bet that mickiel has many things he does not believe exist; UFO abductions, bigfoot, Loch Ness monster, Chupacabra, etc, etc.

And I'm also willing to bet that he disbelieves many of these things for good reason; lack of demonstrable evidence being the main one.

Yet he doesn't examine his own, unsupported beliefs with the same level of scrutiny as he does these other claims.

Now of course, I could be completely wrong, and he's even more gullible than I think.

(June 6, 2014 at 4:01 pm)mickiel Wrote: Right. by the way, I accept evolution myself, much of it.

No you fucking don't. Quit lying.

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(June 6, 2014 at 4:15 pm)mickiel Wrote: Ahh, finally; it came from the creative conscious mind of god! Evidence it had to be a god, because in our physical reality, its impossible for something to come out of nothing.

That would include your gawd, unless you're accusing it of being nothing. So, is your gawd something? If so, where did it come from? Please don't use special pleading. That would be such a huge disappointment.

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(June 6, 2014 at 4:19 pm)mickiel Wrote: The fact that you think my evidence is only assertations does not phase me either.

It rarely bothers the faither that his assertions are merely that. What bothers you is of no concern to us. What you can prove (provide actual evidence for) is. So far, that has been nothing more than the evidence that you are completely ignorant of all sciences.

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(June 6, 2014 at 4:25 pm)mickiel Wrote: a blanket constant response to literally everything thrown at you

When you only throw shit, you'll only get one response.

What? We're supposed to respond differently do different types of shit? Near as I can tell, all of 'em stink. Just like you're "evidence."

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(June 6, 2014 at 4:33 pm)mickiel Wrote: Facts are facts; period!! Its a fact that simon the cyrenian carried jesus cross, archaeologist found simons bone box, we got the mans bones. Fact. Its a fact that the high preist Caiaphas slapped jesus on the face, we got that jokers bones as well. jesus was baptized on a hill called Golgotha, we got that hill, he was baptized in the river Jordan, its still there! Jesus had two female friends, mary and Martha, archaeologist have found their house. All that is in the bible. And hundreds of finds like that.

Oh, we've got some bones, a hill, a river and a house. Holy shit! We were wrong. There really is a god!!!!!

Oh. We also have London. That's in England. In London there a place called Kings Cross Station. Harry Potter got on a train there every fall to go to wizarding school at Hogwarts. YES! Harry Potter is real!!!! I KNEW he had to be. See, I read it in a book.

I'll bet he could kick god's ass too. Just look what he did to Lord Voldemort!

Returning to REALITY......
No one can prove those bones are from the people that they CLAIM they are from. Hills, rivers and houses will never be evidence of people or events.

(June 6, 2014 at 4:45 pm)mickiel Wrote: In my view, 24 pages of it.

Get your eyes checked!

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(June 6, 2014 at 5:05 pm)mickiel Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Okay, fine. Now we're going to play it this way.

God doesn't exist. The fact that we live in a natural world is proof of that.

We do not live in a natural world, its a created world

Evidence or shut the fuck up!

(June 6, 2014 at 5:05 pm)mickiel Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote: The fact that evolution is a sufficient cause of the diversity of life on earth is proof of that.

Evolution is a tool that the designer of earth uses to change his creations; tweak them

Evidence or shut the fuck up!

(June 6, 2014 at 5:05 pm)mickiel Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote: The fact that abiogenesis is a sufficient cause for the beginning of life is proof of that.

I do not believe in abiogenesis, but I accept biogenesis.

What?!? You accept but don't believe?!? It either happened or it didn't. You can't have it both ways.

(June 6, 2014 at 5:05 pm)mickiel Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote: The fact that we clearly don't live in a creation as the majority of the universe is outright fatal to life is proof of that.

I have no idea what this means

Color me un-surprised

(June 6, 2014 at 5:05 pm)mickiel Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote: The fact that something can come from nothing is proof of that. The fact that god isn't real is proof of that.

Something cannot come from nothing, and there is no proof that god is not real.

You've already been given evidence that something can indeed come from nothing. Your continued use of this claim is now outright lying unless and until you can refute that evidence. Of course, I'm sure you never bothered to examine that evidence.

(June 6, 2014 at 5:05 pm)mickiel Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 4:52 pm)Esquilax Wrote: That's what you think evidence is, right? Well, now you can refute all of that evidence I just laid out, because those are all facts, and now you have to deal with that.

mickiel, you are one of the most thick-headed, intellectually dishonest people it has ever been my misfortune to encounter. Please keep the humor coming. As My dad always told me: "If you can't laugh at yourself, pick someone else and laugh at them." mickiel, I've nominated you!

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(June 6, 2014 at 10:23 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(June 6, 2014 at 10:02 pm)GalacticBusDriver Wrote: When will you actually provide some. No, that stuff you're pulling out of your ass doesn't count!

I am willing to bet that mickiel has many things he does not believe exist; UFO abductions, bigfoot, Loch Ness monster, Chupacabra, etc, etc.

And I'm also willing to bet that he disbelieves many of these things for good reason; lack of demonstrable evidence being the main one.

Yet he doesn't examine his own, unsupported beliefs with the same level of scrutiny as he does these other claims.

Now of course, I could be completely wrong, and he's even more gullible than I think.

At this point it wouldn't surprise me to find that he believes wholeheartedly in all of those along with all the other (non-religious) myths and monsters. He probably also believes Dungeons and Dragons includes real spell books with spells that really work.

(June 6, 2014 at 7:24 pm)mickiel Wrote: Well I do my best. One poster here said he needs more to accept that god is real, I understand that; its not a simple x=y kind of thing; the evidence is empirical in some areas, more visible by experience or personal observation, such as answered prayer or intervention by unseen things, like you should have died in that accident but came away unscratched; or common sense - things which can be independent of specialized knowledge like science, such as Consciousness only can be derived from consciousness, life from life, humans from human and so on.

It makes me sad that this is your best.

Quote:But yet Can god be deduced from a mathematical equation? I tried to show yes, by using the common sense that the universe is designed to be just what it is; every position of the planets around earth had to be exact, especially the distance between it and the sun. No closer no further, it had to be arranged by an arranger, a designer who mathematically deduced those distances; that was labeled as no evidence. I disagreed with that as well.

It's not evidence mostly because its factually wrong; you do realize that the distance of the planets to the sun varies by several million miles during the course of an orbit, as these are not perfectly circular things?

Besides, all you're really saying is "the planets are this way, and because they are this way and not some other way they must have been designed," which could only work if you can somehow establish that the way they are now was a goal state; unless you can actually show that they were meant to end up this way, then we have no reason to believe that. After all, it's possible for this to occur naturally just via physics, and Occam's Razor quickly shaves away any unevidenced god-based claims of their origins.

Quote:Can god be proven by laws? Well yes, gravity, transmutation, polarity, cause and effect, vibration or gestation;

I'm sorry, "transmutation"? Like, alchemy?

Quote: all laws we agree exist, yet the common sense of understanding that laws are formulated by a law giver, even the laws of man, is ignored and even those great laws are being transferred over to being created and put in place by random unorganized occurance and senseless nature, as if those things have creative minds.

The laws of physics are descriptive, not proscriptive. You don't get to ram your designer into the world by misunderstanding what a metaphor is.

(June 6, 2014 at 8:40 am)mickiel Wrote: I did not want to put this in the religious section, because I am not religious. I am not christian, not with any group, but I do believe in god, and will explain and debate why.

If you aren't a Christian, why are you only using the Bible for your proof? Here's an interesting quote from Ramakrishna

Quote:God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole.

He also used a well known teaching story.

Quote:Four blind men went to see an elephant. One touched the leg of the elephant, and said, "The elephant is like a pillar." The second touched the trunk, and said, "The elephant is like a thick stick or club." The third touched the belly, and said, "The elephant is like a big jar." The fourth touched the ears, and said, "The elephant is like a winnowing basket." Thus they began to dispute amongst themselves as to the figure of the elephant. A passer-by seeing them thus quarrelling, said, "What is it that you are disputing about?" They told him everything, and asked him to arbitrate. That man said, "None of you has seen the elephant. The elephant is not like a pillar, its legs are like pillars. It is not like a big water-vessel, its belly is like a water-vessel. It is not like a winnowing basket, its ears are like winnowing baskets. It is not like a thick stick or club, but its proboscis is like that. The elephant is the combination of all these." In the same manner those quarrel who have seen one aspect only of the Deity.

So there you are. You're not a Christian so you're free to use teachings from other religions to talk about the God you believe in.

(June 6, 2014 at 8:40 am)mickiel Wrote: Consciousness, the governor of our behavior. I do not believe that a thing like consciousness can be the result of random evolution; although I believe in evolution, just not 100% of the common definition of the term, I think its a tool of god. Not a tool of magic luck. I think our consciousness was designed to continue to evolve, like many things God designed. And yes, I do figure that design requires a designer, or is evidence of one.

I do not think consciousness could be arrived at from things " lesser than itself", such as unconscious things like rocks, matter and chemicals; no. This fingers a god in my figuration.

...

That is like saying that dead things can produce life. Which I think is another proof of god, only consciousness can birth consciousness , only life can produce life; only a human can birth a human; we are not continuous with the idiot hierarchy of speechless apes.

I'm not sure why you are so overawed by consciousness. If you knew more about embryology you might be even more impressed by the manner in which each and every organism assembles itself from scratch. But why look beyond the physical to explain the physical?

Consciousness of humans is not so different than in other animals. It is only language that makes it seem so. Everything about life is amazing and surprising. But remember that life is a potential state of inorganic materials. That isn't up for debate. It is a fact.

(June 7, 2014 at 6:55 am)whateverist Wrote: But remember that life is a potential state of inorganic materials. That isn't up for debate. It is a fact.

I think you are overstating things.

Do you have in mind a divine spark of some kind?