(July 13, 2014 at 10:54 am)OceanWave Wrote: It's Allah telling us what is wrong as right. That's absolute to us

In your life, right and wrong is relative. Which is flawed in my belief. You're free to believe what you wan

Well, thank you for telling me what I believe and how I live my life. It's always so gratifying when someone does that, instead of - say - just asking or anything. I mean, who does that, right?

I'm still waiting for an answer to my other point: is what you find written in your special book the only thing keeping you from killing and stealing? And if not, why bother with the book?

See, the thing is, I don't need anyone else telling me not to be inhuman in order for me to behave like a decent member of the human race. I don't wake up each morning and have to check written instructions to remind me not to kill anyone today. Who'd have thought that I, an atheist, would behave as any other moral member of society purely because it's the right thing to do, rather than because a figment of someone else's imagination doesn't like it?

(July 13, 2014 at 11:05 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(July 13, 2014 at 11:00 am)OceanWave Wrote: You also stated " everybody has" which is a huge generalization and obviously incorrect as crimes are committed everyday. So those people obviously don't have consensus. That's common sense. But common sense is not so common anymore.

I believe you are the one with serious issues. As Allah has decreed the best governing rules possible, that are absolute.

You stated "the best governing rules possible" which is a huge generalization and obviously incorrect as muslim theocracies show a much lower technological/scientific/artistic output than secular democracies. That's common sense.... But it seems common sense isn't so common in muslim minds.

There is no true Muslim government until the 12th Imam comes with Jesus PBUH.

But Iran is the only true Muslim country today. An in fact they have the Number 1 scientific growth.

Can't forget about the Muslims of the hundreds of years leading to the crusades who paved the way for modern sciences, mathematics, medicine either.

You're confusing objective and authoritarian ethics. Authoritarian ethics rely on the word of some figure, god or a law giving body or whatever, to tell you what is good. Objective ethics rely on values and principals that are available to all. Life, for example. Justice. Happiness.

(July 13, 2014 at 11:05 am)OceanWave Wrote:

(July 13, 2014 at 11:01 am)Natachan Wrote: There are atheists who believe in an objective morality. There are some who believe in moral absolutes.

And who is deciding on these absolutes these atheists are beleiving?

An atheists could say " I believe killing innocents is ok". That would be neither wrong or right according to atheists as this individual is deciding on his standards, which would a relative to an atheists who doesn't believe in killing innocents. Every atheists is different as they have no absolute morals to guide them besides the morals they were religiously inspired from

Society has rules which mirror the thoughts of the majority and also incorporate many trial-and-error options, like incest. That is what is usually referred to as morality.
Then along came organized religions and theocracies which hijacked these long-standing rules of societal behavior... and now they claim people can't be a part of society without their religion of choice...
Talk about hypocrite!

(July 13, 2014 at 11:07 am)Stimbo Wrote:

(July 13, 2014 at 10:54 am)OceanWave Wrote: It's Allah telling us what is wrong as right. That's absolute to us

In your life, right and wrong is relative. Which is flawed in my belief. You're free to believe what you wan

Well, thank you for telling me what I believe and how I live my life. It's always so gratifying when someone does that, instead of - say - just asking or anything. I mean, who does that, right?

I'm still waiting for an answer to my other point: is what you find written in your special book the only thing keeping you from killing and stealing? And if not, why bother with the book?

See, the thing is, I don't need anyone else telling me not to be inhuman in order for me to behave like a decent member of the human race. I don't wake up each morning and have to check written instructions to remind me not to kill anyone today. Who'd have thought that I, an atheist, would behave as any other moral member of society purely because it's the right thing to do, rather than because a figment of someone else's imagination doesn't like it?

The Quran is sufficient enough for me.

(July 13, 2014 at 11:05 am)OceanWave Wrote: An atheists could say " I believe killing innocents is ok".

A Muslim could say "I believe killing innocents is ok" because he's found a passage, or many, in his holy book that agrees with his personal viewpoint or that he can interpret in that way and that certainly appears to what is happening today.

(July 13, 2014 at 8:07 am)OceanWave Wrote: Islam is an egalitarian religion

Islam is the religion of oppression, warmongering, murder, and anti-intellectualism. People often ask what the world would be like without religion, and usually it's impossible to say. But without a doubt it would be a million times better had Islam never been invented and the quran never plagiarised from the holy books that came before it.

(July 13, 2014 at 11:08 am)Natachan Wrote: You're confusing objective and authoritarian ethics. Authoritarian ethics rely on the word of some figure, god or a law giving body or whatever, to tell you what is good. Objective ethics rely on values and principals that are available to all. Life, for example. Justice. Happiness.

Objective is still relative depending on who it is. That's pretty obvious

(July 13, 2014 at 11:08 am)OceanWave Wrote:

(July 13, 2014 at 11:05 am)pocaracas Wrote: You stated "the best governing rules possible" which is a huge generalization and obviously incorrect as muslim theocracies show a much lower technological/scientific/artistic output than secular democracies. That's common sense.... But it seems common sense isn't so common in muslim minds.

There is no true Muslim government until the 12th Imam comes with Jesus PBUH.

But Iran is the only true Muslim country today. An in fact they have the Number 1 scientific growth.

Can't forget about the Muslims of the hundreds of years leading to the crusades who paved the way for modern sciences, mathematics, medicine either.

So, which is it?!
"There is no true muslim government" or "Iran is the only true Muslim country"?

A theocracy cannot be the best possible government solution, because it requires everyone in that country to blindly believe that a very specific deity exists. That is comparable to 1984's world... hudder:

(July 13, 2014 at 11:12 am)OceanWave Wrote:

(July 13, 2014 at 11:08 am)Natachan Wrote: You're confusing objective and authoritarian ethics. Authoritarian ethics rely on the word of some figure, god or a law giving body or whatever, to tell you what is good. Objective ethics rely on values and principals that are available to all. Life, for example. Justice. Happiness.

Objective is still relative depending on who it is. That's pretty obvious

Only a sith deals in absolutes