(July 23, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Blackout Wrote: That's not a rule, that's just atheism per se, it's like saying the heart beating is a condition to be alive. If there is no belief, you're an atheist, even if you dislike it. The difference is the lack of belief in gods can be questioned every time, I could search for god and start believing, there is no punishment for it in my optic, therefore fundamentalism doesn't exist. Fundamentalism would be if I believed no gods exist and continued to do so despite evidence to prove the supernatural being presented.

I don't consider lack of belief in gods as a rule to atheism, it's not a rule, atheism doesn't have any rules or dogmas, the lack of belief is what constitutes atheism. Not to mention not all atheists lack belief in gods, some atheists believe no gods exist (gnostic atheists), there goes your single rule

Many fallacies here. You did not chose to have your heart beat but you chose to be an atheist. The same way you chose to be a Christian although many are brainwashed into it.

The lack of beliefs in god is not really a rule but I just used that word. It is indeed the main and only principle to be an atheist. People of religious backgrounds have all sorts of principles they must live by. Atheism by no means has dogma and there can be no such thing as fundamentalist atheism because by default it is fundamentalist from the get go.

Atheism has 1 premise and if you don't agree to that premise(no gods) then you can't be an atheist. You cannot bend or twist it into something it is no as it only makes one statement. This is why you have agnostic, gnostic, new or pragmatic atheism. I myself am an igtheist.

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(July 23, 2014 at 3:36 pm)Losty Wrote: Losty-chan hehe I'm not Japanese. :p

I don't think not believing in gods is a rule...not for me. My only rule is that I don't believe in anything unless I believe in it, because I believe in it.
If that counts as a dogma then I guess I'm a fundamentalist Losty....because I just do what I feel like doing and believe what I believe. Usually my beliefs are based on evidence, but always they're based on whatever I actually believe at the time.

Not Japanese? Well you are now! Want some catnip Losty-chan? I here that it is popular amongst you nekomimi types.

Rule is a bad word so I would rather use premise or principle in place of it.

(July 23, 2014 at 4:10 pm)Rabb Allah Wrote:

(July 23, 2014 at 3:35 pm)Blackout Wrote: That's not a rule, that's just atheism per se, it's like saying the heart beating is a condition to be alive. If there is no belief, you're an atheist, even if you dislike it. The difference is the lack of belief in gods can be questioned every time, I could search for god and start believing, there is no punishment for it in my optic, therefore fundamentalism doesn't exist. Fundamentalism would be if I believed no gods exist and continued to do so despite evidence to prove the supernatural being presented.

I don't consider lack of belief in gods as a rule to atheism, it's not a rule, atheism doesn't have any rules or dogmas, the lack of belief is what constitutes atheism. Not to mention not all atheists lack belief in gods, some atheists believe no gods exist (gnostic atheists), there goes your single rule

Many fallacies here. You did not chose to have your heart beat but you chose to be an atheist. The same way you chose to be a Christian although many are brainwashed into it.

The lack of beliefs in god is not really a rule but I just used that word. It is indeed the main and only principle to be an atheist. People of religious backgrounds have all sorts of principles they must live by.

It is not however an absolute 'principle'. By the way, I don't consider I chose to be an atheist, I was simply forced to become one given the facts. It wasn't a choice, I simply looked at facts and reality, just like I didn't chose that green is green and red is red, I simply looked at the colours and determined they were green and red. The facts forced me to reach the conclusion. You can't be a fundamentalist if you can question the rules and principles/dogmas, world views, whatever you want to call them. I can question my belief position every time I wish too, and I will stop following it if it starts leading to bad results. A fundamentalist follows the whole doctrine without questioning, even if the result is hideous. If the holy book X says 'kill people Y' they will kill people Y, even if it's wrong. And I don't think not believing in gods is a premise, it's the conclusion. However, premises and conclusions can be questioned and dismissed if there is inductive or deductive evidence.

(July 23, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Blackout Wrote: It is not however an absolute 'principle'. By the way, I don't consider I chose to be an atheist, I was simply forced to become one given the facts. It wasn't a choice, I simply looked at facts and reality, just like I didn't chose that green is green and red is red, I simply looked at the colours and determined they were green and red. The facts forced me to reach the conclusion. You can't be a fundamentalist if you can question the rules and principles/dogmas, world views, whatever you want to call them. I can question my belief position every time I wish too, and I will stop following it if it starts leading to bad results. A fundamentalist follows the whole doctrine without questioning, even if the result is hideous. If the holy book X says 'kill people Y' they will kill people Y, even if it's wrong. And I don't think not believing in gods is a premise, it's the conclusion. However, premises and conclusions can be questioned and dismissed if there is inductive or deductive evidence.

ow you are making this subjective. Having encountered Muslims before they would not consider evidence as evidence only Islam is evidence. You are bound by reason like me and have no choice but to make reasonable decisions but not everybody is like this and most are the opposite.

Fundamentalism is only inherent upon the ideology or concept you adhere to, in this case atheism. You are an atheist because you question things. This is like saying you are not a fundamentalist skeptic.

(July 23, 2014 at 4:10 pm)Rabb Allah Wrote: Not Japanese? Well you are now! Want some catnip Losty-chan? I here that it is popular amongst you nekomimi types

Umm.....ok...sure :p
I don't even know....wha? Huh?

(July 22, 2014 at 7:54 pm)Blackout Wrote: Why do some theists, particularly religious ones, like so much to point out and accuse some atheists of being fundamentalists (similar to religious ones)? Don't they realize atheism has no dogmas, therefore there can't be any fundamentalism? Stop using that word theists, I don't think it means what you think it means!

You guys are compared as fundamentalists? I'm sorry is just that all this is sound very oblivious, at least for me. I mean no one in Latin America call us atheist fundamentalists. That's why is a little hard for me to believe that.

(July 23, 2014 at 4:28 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 22, 2014 at 7:54 pm)Blackout Wrote: Why do some theists, particularly religious ones, like so much to point out and accuse some atheists of being fundamentalists (similar to religious ones)? Don't they realize atheism has no dogmas, therefore there can't be any fundamentalism? Stop using that word theists, I don't think it means what you think it means!

You guys are compared as fundamentalists? I'm sorry is just that all this is sound very oblivious, at least for me. I mean no one in Latin America call us atheist fundamentalists. That's why is a little hard for me to believe that.

I've heard theists call atheists fundamentalists, but what to you mean by 'you guys'?

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(July 23, 2014 at 4:24 pm)Rabb Allah Wrote:

(July 23, 2014 at 4:14 pm)Blackout Wrote: It is not however an absolute 'principle'. By the way, I don't consider I chose to be an atheist, I was simply forced to become one given the facts. It wasn't a choice, I simply looked at facts and reality, just like I didn't chose that green is green and red is red, I simply looked at the colours and determined they were green and red. The facts forced me to reach the conclusion. You can't be a fundamentalist if you can question the rules and principles/dogmas, world views, whatever you want to call them. I can question my belief position every time I wish too, and I will stop following it if it starts leading to bad results. A fundamentalist follows the whole doctrine without questioning, even if the result is hideous. If the holy book X says 'kill people Y' they will kill people Y, even if it's wrong. And I don't think not believing in gods is a premise, it's the conclusion. However, premises and conclusions can be questioned and dismissed if there is inductive or deductive evidence.

ow you are making this subjective. Having encountered Muslims before they would not consider evidence as evidence only Islam is evidence. You are bound by reason like me and have no choice but to make reasonable decisions but not everybody is like this and most are the opposite.

Fundamentalism is only inherent upon the ideology or concept you adhere to, in this case atheism. You are an atheist because you question things. This is like saying you are not a fundamentalist skeptic.

I'm a bit tired of explaining my position so I'll quote wikipedia to make things clearer for you. This is why atheists are not fundamentalists:

Quote:Fundamentalism is the demand for a strict adherence to orthodox theological doctrines, usually understood as a reaction to Modernist theology.[1] The term was originally coined by its supporters to describe five specific classic theological beliefs of Christianity, and that developed into a Christian fundamentalist movement within the Protestant community of the United States in the early part of the 20th century.[2]

The term usually has a religious connotation indicating unwavering attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs,[3] but fundamentalism has come to be applied to a broad tendency among certain groups, mainly, although not exclusively, in religion. This tendency is most often characterized by a markedly strict literalism as applied to certain specific scriptures, dogmas, or ideologies, and a strong sense of the importance of maintaining ingroup and outgroup distinctions[4] [5] [6] [7] , which can lead to an emphasis on purity and the desire to return to a previous ideal from which it is believed that members have begun to stray. Rejection of diversity of opinion as applied to these established "fundamentals" and their accepted interpretation within the group is often the result of this tendency.[8]

Fundamentalism is sometimes used as a pejorative term, particularly when combined with other epithets (as in the phrase "right-wing fundamentalists").

Where does atheist fit in?

(July 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm)Blackout Wrote: I've heard theists call atheists fundamentalists, but what to you mean by 'you guys'?

I meant North Americans. Because like I said before I dunno about you guys up there but down here in Latin America I've never hear that atheistic fundamentalist accusation.

(July 23, 2014 at 4:58 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm)Blackout Wrote: I've heard theists call atheists fundamentalists, but what to you mean by 'you guys'?

I meant North Americans. Because like I said before I dunno about you guys up there but down here in Latin America I've never hear that atheistic fundamentalist accusation.

Heh, I don't believe Blackout is a North American. Calling atheists fundamentalists is a trope that's all over the world that theists use when they want to throw tu quoque's around.

(July 23, 2014 at 4:58 pm)Zidneya Wrote:

(July 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm)Blackout Wrote: I've heard theists call atheists fundamentalists, but what to you mean by 'you guys'?

I meant North Americans. Because like I said before I dunno about you guys up there but down here in Latin America I've never hear that atheistic fundamentalist accusation.

Why do people assume everybody is an american except south americans? I'm european. I just posted the thread because I hear theists on real life and on the internet calling atheists 'fundamentalists', and it annoys me very much.

(July 23, 2014 at 12:03 am)TaraJo Wrote: So, here's the idea: When someone calls us fundamentalists, point out the definition of fundamentalism. I already looked it up on the online dictionary and here's what I got:



(source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar...amentalist)
Ask them what "set of basic principles" atheists "stressing strict and literal adherence to." It sure would be interesting to hear a response.

I think the term has some values. Some people are atheist simply insofar as an absence of belief. In the same way as, say, your average prawn is probably atheist.

Others however take it a little further. They form forums. Unspoken "rules" develop within the "set", little sociological quirks and things which get bolted onto the core belief (or lack of it in this case). People come together in common cause. It becomes, in short, a movement.

Atheism is defined as
"disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."

Lets say I rocked up here and said I did not believe in God, but I did believe in spiritualism, speaking to the dead, reincarnation of the immortal soul, and psychic healing. An atheist in the most naked sense of the word would not be predisposed to snigger at me. Those beliefs are separate from the existence of God so it should be no more relevant than my view on wagner or climate change. However I think we all know that such a person would struggle to get those views respected because they are contrary to the PRINCIPLES of atheism. Scientific process. Burden of proof. Occams razor. That style of thing.

The teaching of religion as science in schools might be another example. An atheist is not by definition pro or anti, the definition of the term does not contain any comment on other peoples interaction with religion. However most Folk here would be very anti that. Atheism the MOVEMENT is anti that. And rightly so.

That, for me, is the difference. One can be an atheist by default or omission. However some people go another step and make atheism an active thing (I now consider myself included in that group). Fundamentalist atheist is a pejorative term but I don't think its entirely without merit.