(September 24, 2014 at 3:26 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If I could prevent it I would.

A faint glimmer of your humanity shines through the christian darkness. Bravo, now help me haul Mike into the boat.

Quote:So you accept that Jesus is being the hero here.

I can at least appreciate why someone would take one for the team, even if the team isn't worth taking one for, and even if the act subverts the stated purpose and narrative. More tragic victim than hero. A waste.

Quote:Taking one for the troops. But the troops should be ashamed and not accept the sacrifice?

If someone tosses a grenade down the hatch because you forgot to lock it, and your buddy is the one who jumps on the grenade...yes, you should be ashamed. No, you shouldn't have let your friend die for your error. However fast he went for the grenade, you beat him to it. It's the final and perhaps only decent thing you'll ever do, but so be it. If he beats you to it, that's it, game over, you fucked up. His death doesn't redeem your life, if puts the failures of your life into the greatest relief possible. Cheif amongst those failures, is that it was he and not you that "took one for the troops".

Quote:Wouldn't that kinda make the sacrifice a waste?

The sacrifice was already a waste, your theology spits on the corpse.

Quote:Sure they all fell over themselves trying to prevent it, but Sgt Dan insisted. Act is done. All those squaddies get liberty. Yet you say they are immoral for taking the gift? Please explain to me how. I just can't see your point.

You don't seem to be falling all over yourself, but at least you've had the fucking decency to oppose the act if you had opportunity. I guess you're halfway home.

Isn't the only reason we 'need' the sacrifice because the guy making the sacrifice tells us that we need the sacrifice?

(September 24, 2014 at 3:36 pm)Tonus Wrote: I'm curious as to how others define human perfection.

Those are some standard Christian views too. I tend to think of my own situation and how I hold myself back. The 7 deadly sins articulate it I suppose.

(September 24, 2014 at 3:39 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Isn't the only reason we 'need' the sacrifice because the guy making the sacrifice tells us that we need the sacrifice?

More like his death was spun into a sacrifice because the reality of the execution was too squalid, awful, and humiliating for his followers to bear. It had to mean something. It just had to!

I can only with sorrow imagine that religion had so convincingly deluded Jesus' one-track mind, as we see similarly demonstrated with many of the posters that come and quickly disappear here, that he himself may have actually believed he was dying for a worthy and noble cause. Whatever it may have resulted in, it certainly wasn't for anyone's psychological and behavioral dispositions.

Had Jesus possessed the hindsight we do (granted his faculties for wisdom surpassed his followers'), he may have very well joined the late Hitchens in declaring that "religion poisons everything."

(September 24, 2014 at 3:36 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: I hereby disown all responsibility for my faults and mistakes seeing as how I accept the self-sacrificial acts of numerous unnamed persons throughout the world now and in the past.

See how illogical your pretension as a comrade and beneficiary of Jesus' alleged punishment (I mean sacrifice) sounds?

I never disown responsibility. If I did I wouldn't earn forgiveness. I continually acknowledge my guilt and seek reparation for it.

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(September 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:So you accept that Jesus is being the hero here.

I can at least appreciate why someone would take one for the team, even if the team isn't worth taking one for, and even if the act subverts the stated purpose and narrative.

How is the team not worth it?
How does it subvert the narrative?

(September 24, 2014 at 4:13 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How is the team not worth it?

You tell me, you're the one that needs absolution that you cannot possibly earn or deserve. You're the one for whom a horrible act was committed which you cannot make reparations.

But if you want my opinion, sans all the obfuscatory bullshit piled on by yourself and other christians? Because you're accepting vicarious redemption for your own failings. Reject the offer, don't sing it's praises, or the praises of those who would offer or arrange it- then you might be closer to deserving redemption in the first place...for whatever it is that you've done. Closer, mind you...you'll still have to make a run at a decent life.

Quote:How does it subvert the narrative?

Vicarious....redemption. Any invocation of morality, goodness, ethics, justice, or virtue upon the part of yourself, the issuing party, or the organizing agent is rendered null from that point forward.

(September 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:Taking one for the troops. But the troops should be ashamed and not accept the sacrifice?

If someone tosses a grenade down the hatch because you forgot to lock it, and your buddy is the one who jumps on the grenade...yes, you should be ashamed. No, you shouldn't have let your friend die for your error. However fast he went for the grenade, you beat him to it. It's the final and perhaps only decent thing you'll ever do, but so be it. If he beats you to it, that's it, game over, you fucked up. His death doesn't redeem your life, if puts the failures of your life into the greatest relief possible. Cheif amongst those failures, is that it was he and not you that "took one for the troops".

I agree you should do everything you can to pay your own debts. You are ultimately responsible. You have a disability you were born with though that means you make mistakes. Is only your pride, another of your faults, that is preventing you from accepting help gracefully.

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(September 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:Wouldn't that kinda make the sacrifice a waste?

The sacrifice was already a waste, your theology spits on the corpse.

Quote:Sure they all fell over themselves trying to prevent it, but Sgt Dan insisted. Act is done. All those squaddies get liberty. Yet you say they are immoral for taking the gift? Please explain to me how. I just can't see your point.

You don't seem to be falling all over yourself, but at least you've had the fucking decency to oppose the act if you had opportunity. I guess you're halfway home.

How was it a waste?

Who didn't oppose the act? 2000 years later thousands of people still weep about it every Easter.

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(September 24, 2014 at 4:09 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Had Jesus possessed the hindsight we do (granted his faculties for wisdom surpassed his followers'), he may have very well joined the late Hitchens in declaring that "religion poisons everything."

That was pretty much what he spent his life saying.

(September 24, 2014 at 4:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I agree you should do everything you can to pay your own debts. You are ultimately responsible.

-and when you cannot pay those debts you incur, the consequences are also your own responsibility.

Quote:You have a disability you were born with though that means you make mistakes. Is only your pride, another of your faults, that is preventing you from accepting help gracefully.

Perhaps you were born with a disability, I was not. It's a strong moral stance that will not allow me to whip your boy, or accept such a "gift" for any failure on my own part. The "gift" would turn into an anchor, my mouth would fill with ash. Any further corrective action would be unnecessary, I would be in my own private hell. You take whatever gifts you like to wash away whatever disability you were born with, whatever evil you've done, extract however many pounds of flesh you require to pay your ferryman. I've already told you I'm not interested.

Quote:How was it a waste?

Who didn't oppose the act? 2000 years later thousands of people still weep about it every Easter.

-and yet you accept the blood money. Real class, right there. There goes that glimmer I saw a minute ago....

(September 24, 2014 at 4:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(September 24, 2014 at 4:13 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: How is the team not worth it?

Reject the offer, don't sing it's praises, or the praises of those who would offer or arrange it- then you might be closer to deserving redemption in the first place...for whatever it is that you've done. Closer, mind you...you'll still have to make a run at a decent life.

Well as you're a human being your subject to the same failings. You make your own reparations or live with the guilt.

You reject the offer, because you don't get it. I shouldn't reject it if I get it, and you're dead right.. I should do everything in my power to make amends where humanly possible.
What forgiveness gives me though is the ability to fulfill my potential unhindered by guilt. Pride in my own achievements would be a hindrance to that.

(September 24, 2014 at 4:32 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:How does it subvert the narrative?

Vicarious....redemption. Any invocation of morality, goodness, ethics, justice, or virtue upon the part of yourself, the issuing party, or the organizing agent is rendered null from that point forward.

You're not explaining anything. Break it down.

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(September 24, 2014 at 4:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Perhaps you were born with a disability, I was not. It's a strong moral stance that will not allow me to whip your boy, or accept such a "gift" for any failure on my own part.

It's called pride mate, and it seems like you have more than your fair share.

Rhythm Wrote:

Quote:How was it a waste?

Who didn't oppose the act? 2000 years later thousands of people still weep about it every Easter.

-and yet you accept the blood money. Real class, right there. There goes that glimmer I saw a minute ago....

And what kind of person would I be to reject someone ultimate sacrifice on my behalf? An ungrateful one I'd say.