(September 29, 2014 at 11:39 am)Drich Wrote: In the U.S. christianity is not tied to any one prophet/pope/doctrine. Which means we are free to go where ever the bible leads.

Oh, the irony.

(September 29, 2014 at 11:39 am)Drich Wrote: The defination is provided in the link I supplied.

I also posted the defination to the orginal greek word that this doctrine originates, along with several scriptural references.

This word means to be suddenly taken. Even if a given denomination does not agree with the doctrine of rapture this word is also used in a broader context of the final resurection.

What most people object to is the suddenly taken part. Not the final resurection which the rapture doctrine is indeed apart of.

That's what I was getting at. I assume ALL Christians believe in the resurrection (it's definitional), but when I asked "do you believe in the rapture" surely you knew that simple resurrection wasn't what I had in mind. Most denominations don't refer to resurrection as the rapture. And some that do mean the final resurrection. What I'm asking about is pre-trib rapture.

I'm assume you are in the pre-trib camp?

(September 29, 2014 at 11:39 am)Drich Wrote: Why is this a U.S. and not a European doctrine? Because European denominations rely heavily on traditional church approval for exegesis of scripture/doctrine. (Most are,tied to some sort of religious leader. To countermand a basic teaching like this is to call into question the commpetance of their 'prophet.')

In the U.S. christianity is not tied to any one prophet/pope/doctrine. Which means we are free to go where ever the bible leads.

Now there's an answer that makes some sense, though I'm glad you put prophet in quotes because I wouldn't call Martin Luther or Calvin prophets. Nor do the churches they created look back to their teachings as the definitive word on how to interpret scripture. The point of the protestant movement was to use the Bible as the primary source of knowledge and to remove the requirements of priestly intervention. The exception being the Anglicans of course. Europe has lots of protestants who have no prophets. But if you substitute tradition for prophet we maybe getting somewhere.

Muslims in Libya believe that a good wind (it'll smell good ) will come and the righteous will die (no flying muslims) and the infidels will witness the shit, gog and magog and the beast (I'm not sure about the chronology of events)

Quote:Muslims in Libya believe that a good wind (it'll smell good Big Grin)

Can't....resist....

The doctine is actually a european import. It also appealed mainly to immigrant populations when it was brought over. It's popular now by force of demographics. There are more immigrants here than natives, and successive waves of immigration seem to have the effect (we're headed there now as well) of eroding the previous waves "naturalized" immigrant populations demographic majority - with that it alters what's on "the peoples'" minds. Consider, for a moment, that to many immigrants over the years, the world was already "ending" where they came from - the rapture narrative might have appealed to them as a mirror of their own experiences here, in the same way that exodus appealed/appeals to the african american demographic.

As above, so below. Perhaps more aptly put, as below....so above.

@Jenny A
I think the confusion comes from the fact that the Bible doesn't use the word "rapture", we use the word out of convenience but it is supported scripturally, which I'll give a very brief explanation.
As I said before (in another thread) the Bible always gives a foreshadowing or precursor to a major event. Jesus gave this example.

Quote:Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

and also

Quote:1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

We must keep in mind that the Gospel hadn't been preached to the gentiles yet (Paul is the one responsible for that) so Jesus and Peter are clearly referring to the Jews.
In the book of revelations it shows how many Jews are saved, which is 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe.

Quote:Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

So this is how it happens, Jesus comes to the Jews, but he is rejected, and according to the prophecy of Daniel, the Messiah would be cut off, in other words not fulling all the prophecies he was supposed to fulfill.

Quote:Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

"but not for himself" alluding to him dying for the sins of the people.
So Jesus is rejected by the Jews and the gospel is given to the gentiles and at the end of the gentile period, the "rapture" takes place, and he returns back to the Jews and reveals himself as the messiah at the battle of Armageddon (many nations will organize an army, and attack Israel) and that's when he fulfills the prophecy's that the messiah is supposed to fulfill.

Quote:Zechariah 12
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

So now that we determined that the "rapture" takes place before Jesus comes back for the Jews, Then there has to be an example of the "rapture" before Noah's ark (the 8 people representing the 144,000 Jews saved) and we see that there was, A man named Enoch just disappeared off the earth one day.

Quote:Genesis 5
21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

If you notice, this is an 8 to 1 ratio, 1 person being "raptured and 8 being saved by the ark. so if the 8 = 144,000 that would mean the amount of people going in the rapture would be something like 18,000 people worldwide, I don't think that many people disappearing would even be noticed.

Has your family always been a member of this sect, where did they come from and when did they get here?

Who are you talking about?

(September 28, 2014 at 10:04 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(September 28, 2014 at 8:15 pm)Jenny A Wrote: [Edit] Thank to Beccs one more question:

4) Why is it primarily a U.S. Christian doctrine only?

It's because all those European bastards sent their biggest head-cases our way.

Oh... I remember sending a few down under, as well!

You Huggs, trying to get a gauge on whether or not your heritage places you as a first wave rapturer, or a recent adoptee.