(November 3, 2014 at 12:09 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(November 3, 2014 at 12:04 pm)dyresand Wrote: Then you can repent for anything fucking thing you did like Hitler he killed millions before taking his own life because the Allies were getting close to him and he was the war. As long as he asks for forgiveness he can be in heaven. By your own admission you can get away with anything because forgiveness can be exploited. you can be a great person all your life then go to hell because you did not believe in god and then god would be his own hypocrite. Atheists have a better chance of going to heaven more than you Christians do we are all rounded individuals who care for others not love everyone because we not told to be because we just do and not love love more like some what of you know sympathy which christians lack. A guy is about to kill himself christians egg him on or say your gonna go to hell for this or your a coward. i can say this that person is not a coward for wanting to do it he is more courage to do it than cowardice. Christians have no good morality is what i should say. Chances are i would be trying to help the person and maybe some good christians but even still they will try to screw him up throwing god into the mix.

forgiveness can't be "exploited" because God knows whats in the heart, and whether one is sincere or not.

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(November 3, 2014 at 12:04 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: Of course they should, don't be daft. But drowning the entire earth because God had a hissy fit about men worshipping other Gods? Even killing the unborn children and infants that couldn't possibly know they were doing something wrong?

Das murder, bro.

No it's not, if you knew anything you'd know that children can't "die"... i'll let you ponder that one for a minute.

According to the Law "the soul that sinneth, that soul shall die"
The Law must be enforced, or it is no law, Bro..

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(November 3, 2014 at 12:08 pm)dyresand Wrote: these theists.... silly theists...
we are right in the end because god if he existed should be put on trial for crimes against humanity.

And this is an example of someone being given over to strong delusions.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

you can be forgiven of anything if you ask for it from god and jesus.
you accept jesus all your immoral acts come onto him. not to mention you call the devil bad he only gotten 10 people indirectly killed over a bet with god and god directly killed billions. god is not god he is malevolent he is not good he is evil. stop saying its gods will because if he exists he favors the evil over the good.

(November 3, 2014 at 12:21 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(November 3, 2014 at 12:17 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: The moral and logical knots you tie yourself in must be painful. You'll think of anything to excuse your God of any immorality, when if any of us did the things he did, we'd be monsters. But I forgot, God has rights on our lives because he has the power and he created us blah blah.

Really? so the death penalty doesn't exist? Last time I looked, the government executed people all the time, and they are NOT omnipotent.

And I'm against that, as are many others. Additionally, the death penalty is a punishment for an actual and real crime such as murder, and not an imaginary crime like blasphemy or worshipping other gods which just seems to hurt God's feelings. Also additionally, the death penalty is administered to the individual(s) who committed the crime and not to their sons or friends or parents or town, something which your God also seems to have trouble with.

Yes, if any of us waltzed into a town with our gang and slaughtered everyone because they offended us, we'd be monsters. Somehow when your God does this (to the entire world, even) he's 'moral'.

(November 3, 2014 at 12:23 pm)dyresand Wrote:

(November 3, 2014 at 12:09 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: forgiveness can't be "exploited" because God knows whats in the heart, and whether one is sincere or not.

---

No it's not, if you knew anything you'd know that children can't "die"... i'll let you ponder that one for a minute.

According to the Law "the soul that sinneth, that soul shall die"
The Law must be enforced, or it is no law, Bro..

---

And this is an example of someone being given over to strong delusions.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie

you can be forgiven of anything if you ask for it from god and jesus.
you accept jesus all your immoral acts come onto him. not to mention you call the devil bad he only gotten 10 people indirectly killed over a bet with god and god directly killed billions. god is not god he is malevolent he is not good he is evil. stop saying its gods will because if he exists he favors the evil over the good.

Quote:Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

you're right, sounds very evil

(November 3, 2014 at 9:28 am)Huggy74 Wrote: You mean have I had a situation where an atheist refused to answer a simple question because the answer destroys their argument? yes.

Sounds like that convo must have been fun for you - but I'm pretty sure that we're not talking about that convo. There would be no "destroying arguments" by means of a true scotsman. You already know why.

(November 3, 2014 at 1:32 am)Rhythm Wrote: It seems you don't even know your own atheist talking points.

You can't pull out the "no true scotsman" nonsense here because I'm not claiming "no true scotsman", my argument is "never was a scotsman". Is there a reason to be confused by a vegetarian eating a steak? nope, because he is obviously not a vegetarian.

Didn;t realize that there were any, yet another atheist memo i didn;t get from the home office. I guess I outta make sure they cc'd me huh?

-And yet vegetarians do eat steak, and yet pacifists do commit acts of violence.....and yet christians do continue to "sin".

Your definition for what it means to be christian is unimpressive and lacking in authority. It is also not represented in reality -at all-, has no bearing on the discussion, and no power to rescue your fallacy. Sorry.

Quote:So by not answering my question you leave no choice but to answer for you, the answer is obvious.

By definition a pacifist CANNOT be a mass murderer

Those who decide or are compelled to commit murder don't seem to be prevented from doing so by a definition. What any given person can or cannot be doesn;t seem to be something you or your "argument" has any influence over- even if you make the demand...all-in-caps.

Quote:The suffix "ian" means "to be like", so the word Christian means "to be like Christ" so by definition a person that does not follow the example of Christ and keep his commandments, is not a Christian (this includes mass murderers).

I'm not exactly going to argue against you if the point you'd like to make is that there are no True Christians™ in this world. I would agree...but at least I'm honest enough to admit that I'm satisfied with the fallacy in this case for reasons of personal amusement- I'm not going to bullshit anyone about some "argument" to that effect which I do not possess.

(November 3, 2014 at 12:26 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(November 3, 2014 at 12:21 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: Really? so the death penalty doesn't exist? Last time I looked, the government executed people all the time, and they are NOT omnipotent.

And I'm against that, as are many others. Additionally, the death penalty is a punishment for an actual and real crime such as murder, and not an imaginary crime like blasphemy or worshipping other gods which just seems to hurt God's feelings. Also additionally, the death penalty is administered to the individual(s) who committed the crime and not to their sons or friends or parents or town, something which your God also seems to have trouble with.

Yes, if any of us waltzed into a town with our gang and slaughtered everyone because they offended us, we'd be monsters. Somehow when your God does this (to the entire world, even) he's 'moral'.

The thing is that were all going to die anyway, the 70 years that you spend on the earth is just a blink in time, in other words, you're going to be dead a lot longer than your time living on this earth, which is a privilege not a right, so make the best of it.

If you transgress the laws of God, he has every right to shorten your time on the earth(which is already short). It's kinda like trying to distinguish between 1/100 and 1/1000 of a second, if your life is cut short somewhere in between, does it matter? We all will return back to where we came from.

(November 3, 2014 at 12:33 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(November 3, 2014 at 12:23 pm)dyresand Wrote: you can be forgiven of anything if you ask for it from god and jesus.
you accept jesus all your immoral acts come onto him. not to mention you call the devil bad he only gotten 10 people indirectly killed over a bet with god and god directly killed billions. god is not god he is malevolent he is not good he is evil. stop saying its gods will because if he exists he favors the evil over the good.

Quote:Matthew 5
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

you're right, sounds very evil

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.

The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.

Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Law Contradictions of the Bible:

10) Shall we obey the law? Romans 13:1-7 says quite clearly that Christians are to submit to the law and regard it as the institution of God. 1 Peter 2:13-14 “Submit your self to every ordinance of man ... to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors.” Matthew 22:21 “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s.” Also see Titus 3:1. Matthew 23:2-3 & Ecclesiastes 8:2 This leads one to assume that Christians must and should obey the law, yet look at these verses which contradicts what I just sited. Acts 5:29 “We ought to obey God rather then men.” Exodus 1:17-20 shows God punishing the midwives for following their rulers instead of God. Also see Daniel 3:16-18, 6:7-10, Acts 4:26 & 27, Mark 12:38-40, Luke 23:11, 24 & 33-35 which all say the law should be ignored. Now we know why Christians get away with their selective morality so often.

11) Should we steal? (Exodus 20:15 & Leviticus 19:13) Stealing is absolutely forbidden. Yet, Exodus 3:21-22, 12:35-36 & Luke 19:29-34 all promote stealing.

12) Should we judge? Jesus is quoted in Matthew 7:1-2: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged.” Also see Luke 6:37 & 1 Corinthians 5:12. Now take a look at “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). Also note 1 Corinthians 5:12 & 6:2-4.

1 3) Should we covet? Exodus 20:17 says, “Thou shalt not covet . . . anything that is thy neighbor’s,” while 1 Corinthians 12:31 says, “Covet earnestly the best gifts.” So, are we or are we not to covet?

14) Is lying okay? Exodus 20:16. Proverbs 12:22 & Revelations 21:8 all say lying is forbidden. Joshua 2:4-6, Exodus 1:18-20 & 1 Kings 22:21-22 all support lying.

15) Can we kill? Exodus 20:13 says “thou shalt not kill”. Exodus 32:27, Numbers 31, and THOUSANDS of other verses show God commanding us to kill.

16) Can we own slaves? Leviticus 25:45 “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy … and they shall be your possession… they shall be your bondmen forever.” Genesis 9:25 “And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.” Exodus 21:2 & 7 “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing… And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.” Joel 3:8 “And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.” Luke 12:47-48 [Jesus speaking] “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” Colossians 3:22

“Servants, obey in all things your masters.” So obviously the Biblical God thinks slavery is right, right? Just look at these: Isaiah 58:6 “Undo the heavy burdens... let the oppressed go free, ... break every yoke.” Matthew 23:10 “Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.” (Also see Exodus 22:21 & 21:16) Let it be known here that pro-slavery Bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here. I simply do not have the room to post all of them.

17) What about Improvidence? Improvidence is enjoined in Luke 12:3 “Sell that ye have and give alms.” also in Luke 6:30 & 35 “Give to every man that asketh of thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again ... And lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great.” Also note Matthew 6:28, 31 & 34. Improvidence is condemned in I Timothy 5:8 “But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. “ Also see Proverbs 13:22.

18) What does the law say about anger? Ephesians 4:26 says “Be ye angry and sin not not.” Anger is disapproved in Ecciesiastes 7:9 “Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry; for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.” Proverbs 22:24 “Make no friendship with an angry man.” Also see James 1:20.

19) Are we to let our good works be seen? Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.” This contradicts verse Matthew 6:1 , “Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them.”

20) Should we pray in public? 1 Kings 2:22, 54 & 9:3 shows the Lord is joyed by public prayer and listens intently. Matthew 6:5-6 condemn public prayer and command people keep it a secret.

21) Can we wear long hair? Judges 13:5 & Numbers 6:5 encourages people to grow their hair and insists it is a source of strength. 1 Corinthians 11:14 calls long hair a “shame”.

22) Should we circumcise males? Genesis 17:10 “This is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man and child among you shall be circumcised. Clearly this demands circumcision, yet Galatians 5:2 says “Behold, I Paul, say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

23) Are there certain kinds of foods we should not eat? Deuteronomy 14:2-8 lists several animals that we are NOT to eat because they are “unclean”, “chew the cud” and “divide the hoof”. Yet Genesis 9:3 & 1 Corinthians 10:25 insists there is nothing we can’t eat. Romans 14:14 says: “There is nothing unclean of itself.”

24) Can we take oaths? Numbers 30:2, Genesis 21:23-24, 31, 31:53 & Hebrews 6:13 says that we can take oaths and encourages it. Matthew 5:34 says “swear (make an oath) not at all.”

25) Can we get married? Genesis 2:18, 1:28, Matthew 19:5 & Hebrews 13:4 all insist marriage is honorable. Marriage is disapproved and scorned in 1 Corinthians 7:1 & 7:7-8.

26) Can we commit adultery? Exodus 20: 14 “thou shalt not commit adultery.” Also see Hebrews 13:4. Now look at Numbers 31:18, Hosea 1:2 & 2:1-3 where adultery is advocated by God.

27) Can we drink alcohol? Proverbs 31:6-7, 1 Timothy 5:23 & Psalms 104:15 all encourage drinking and intoxication. Proverbs 20:1 & 23:31-32 discourage drinking and intoxication.

28) Do women have rights? Genesis 3:16 “And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” 1 Timothy 2:12 says a woman must not teach, remain silent and must be subjugated to her man. 1 Corinthians 14:34 & 1 Peter 3:6 both say that women have limited rights and are under control of their men. Judges 4:4, 14-15, 5:7, Acts 2:18 & 21:9 all tell of powerful women who were not subjugated by men and were not punished for their authority of men.

29) Should we obey our masters with usurped authority? Colossians 3:22-23 & 1 Peter 2:18 says we should. 1 Corinthians 7:23 “Be not ye the servants of men.” Also see Matthew 4:10 & 23:10 which say we should not submit usurped to our masters.

30) Was the law of the Old Testament destroyed by Christ’s crucification? Luke16:16, Ephesians 2:15 & Romans 7:6 says that the old law is no longer binding. Yet Matthew 5:17-19 and MANY other verses say that the old law is forever binding. If you want to see the many verses that command we follow the old law please consult the upper portion of this page.

31) Should we swear an oath? Numbers 30:2 “If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath…he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.” Genesis 21:22-24 & 31 “…swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me…And Abraham said, I will swear…Wherefore he called that place Beersheba [“Well of the oath”]; because there they sware both of them.” Hebrews 6:13-17 “For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself…for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability ofhis counsel, confirmed it by an oath.” See also Genesis 22:15- 19, Genesis 31 :53, & Judges I 1 :30-39. So apparently it is okay to swear an oath, we even do this on the Bible in American courts. Just try and forget these verses: Matthew 5:34-37 “But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven…nor by the earth…Neither shalt thou swear by thy head…But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.”

James 5:12 “…swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.”

32) Do we keep the Sabbath? Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.” Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.” Numbers 15:32-36 “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.” Each of these contradict Isaiah 1:13 “The new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity.“ John 5:16 “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day. “Colossians 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.”

33) Should we make graven images? Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven…earth ... water.” Leviticus 26:1 “Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone.” Deuteronomy 27:15 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.” Okay, I got it I shouldn’t produce a thing in fear of making a graven image, but wait: Exodus 25:18 “And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.” I Kings 7:15-16 & 23-25 “For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass…and two chapiters of molten brass…And he made a molten sea…it stood upon twelve oxen ... [and so on]”

(November 3, 2014 at 12:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: The thing is that were all going to die anyway, the 70 years that you spend on the earth is just a blink in time, in other words, you're going to be dead a lot longer than your time living on this earth, which is a privilege not a right, so make the best of it.

If you transgress the laws of God, he has every right to shorten your time on the earth(which is already short). It's kinda like trying to distinguish between 1/100 and 1/1000 of a second, if your life is cut short somewhere in between, does it matter? We all will return back to where we came from.

Your listed religious views become more ironic with every post. I've already "been dead" for far longer than I've been alive. I don't recall that being any sort of priviledge, I don't recall having had any means to make the best of that. I'm not even sure that these concepts can be arranged thusly and yield a coherent statement about, well - anything.

Your comments as to the rights of a god are vacuous. However, your comments about what matters are pregnant with insightful points of inference. As I've had occasion to mention to another poster similarly afflicted of late - I'm sure that death at the ripe old age of 5 is washed of meaning (and particularly of any inconvenient negative implications for the religion you believe in) by candy, forever. Sounds legit.

If it doesn't matter whether or not your life is cut short I hope you leave a scathing letter in your last will and testament about the pettiness of the courts for prosecuting whomever may, in some unfortunate and hopefully never to be realized situation - prematurely put an end to you.

(November 3, 2014 at 12:47 pm)dyresand Wrote:

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(November 3, 2014 at 12:33 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: you're right, sounds very evil

The God of the Bible also allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9).

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.

The God of the Bible also was a big fan of ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice.

Christians believe that God is a good and loving god, and wants people to do good things. I believe that most people want to do good things and behave morally. I also believe that many Christians haven’t really read the Bible, or just read certain passages in church. This is understandable, as the Bible is hard to read due to its archaic language and obscure references. Also many priests and preachers don’t like to read certain passages in the Bible because they present a message of hate not love.

1) “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV) Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then Jesus said so.

2) All of the vicious Old Testament laws will be binding forever. "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

3) Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

3b) "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NAB)

3c) "Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God." (2 Peter 20-21 NAB)

4) Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10 NAB)

5) Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” (Matthew 15:4-7)

6) Jesus has a punishment even worse than his father concerning adultery: God said the act of adultery was punishable by death. Jesus says looking with lust is the same thing and you should gouge your eye out, better a part, than the whole. The punishment under Jesus is an eternity in Hell. (Matthew 5:27)

7) Peter says that all slaves should “be subject to [their] masters with all fear,” to the bad and cruel as well as the “good and gentle.” This is merely an echo of the same slavery commands in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 2:18

8) “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law" (John7:19) and “For the law was given by Moses,..." (John 1:17).

9) “...the scripture cannot be broken.” --Jesus Christ, John 10:35

Law Contradictions of the Bible:

10) Shall we obey the law? Romans 13:1-7 says quite clearly that Christians are to submit to the law and regard it as the institution of God. 1 Peter 2:13-14 “Submit your self to every ordinance of man ... to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors.” Matthew 22:21 “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s.” Also see Titus 3:1. Matthew 23:2-3 & Ecclesiastes 8:2 This leads one to assume that Christians must and should obey the law, yet look at these verses which contradicts what I just sited. Acts 5:29 “We ought to obey God rather then men.” Exodus 1:17-20 shows God punishing the midwives for following their rulers instead of God. Also see Daniel 3:16-18, 6:7-10, Acts 4:26 & 27, Mark 12:38-40, Luke 23:11, 24 & 33-35 which all say the law should be ignored. Now we know why Christians get away with their selective morality so often.

11) Should we steal? (Exodus 20:15 & Leviticus 19:13) Stealing is absolutely forbidden. Yet, Exodus 3:21-22, 12:35-36 & Luke 19:29-34 all promote stealing.

12) Should we judge? Jesus is quoted in Matthew 7:1-2: “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged.” Also see Luke 6:37 & 1 Corinthians 5:12. Now take a look at “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). Also note 1 Corinthians 5:12 & 6:2-4.

1 3) Should we covet? Exodus 20:17 says, “Thou shalt not covet . . . anything that is thy neighbor’s,” while 1 Corinthians 12:31 says, “Covet earnestly the best gifts.” So, are we or are we not to covet?

14) Is lying okay? Exodus 20:16. Proverbs 12:22 & Revelations 21:8 all say lying is forbidden. Joshua 2:4-6, Exodus 1:18-20 & 1 Kings 22:21-22 all support lying.

15) Can we kill? Exodus 20:13 says “thou shalt not kill”. Exodus 32:27, Numbers 31, and THOUSANDS of other verses show God commanding us to kill.

16) Can we own slaves? Leviticus 25:45 “Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy … and they shall be your possession… they shall be your bondmen forever.” Genesis 9:25 “And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.” Exodus 21:2 & 7 “If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing… And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.” Joel 3:8 “And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.” Luke 12:47-48 [Jesus speaking] “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.” Colossians 3:22

“Servants, obey in all things your masters.” So obviously the Biblical God thinks slavery is right, right? Just look at these: Isaiah 58:6 “Undo the heavy burdens... let the oppressed go free, ... break every yoke.” Matthew 23:10 “Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.” (Also see Exodus 22:21 & 21:16) Let it be known here that pro-slavery Bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here. I simply do not have the room to post all of them.

17) What about Improvidence? Improvidence is enjoined in Luke 12:3 “Sell that ye have and give alms.” also in Luke 6:30 & 35 “Give to every man that asketh of thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again ... And lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward shall be great.” Also note Matthew 6:28, 31 & 34. Improvidence is condemned in I Timothy 5:8 “But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. “ Also see Proverbs 13:22.

18) What does the law say about anger? Ephesians 4:26 says “Be ye angry and sin not not.” Anger is disapproved in Ecciesiastes 7:9 “Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry; for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.” Proverbs 22:24 “Make no friendship with an angry man.” Also see James 1:20.

19) Are we to let our good works be seen? Matthew 5:16 “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.” This contradicts verse Matthew 6:1 , “Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them.”

20) Should we pray in public? 1 Kings 2:22, 54 & 9:3 shows the Lord is joyed by public prayer and listens intently. Matthew 6:5-6 condemn public prayer and command people keep it a secret.

21) Can we wear long hair? Judges 13:5 & Numbers 6:5 encourages people to grow their hair and insists it is a source of strength. 1 Corinthians 11:14 calls long hair a “shame”.

22) Should we circumcise males? Genesis 17:10 “This is my covenant which ye shall keep between me and you and thy seed after thee: Every man and child among you shall be circumcised. Clearly this demands circumcision, yet Galatians 5:2 says “Behold, I Paul, say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

23) Are there certain kinds of foods we should not eat? Deuteronomy 14:2-8 lists several animals that we are NOT to eat because they are “unclean”, “chew the cud” and “divide the hoof”. Yet Genesis 9:3 & 1 Corinthians 10:25 insists there is nothing we can’t eat. Romans 14:14 says: “There is nothing unclean of itself.”

24) Can we take oaths? Numbers 30:2, Genesis 21:23-24, 31, 31:53 & Hebrews 6:13 says that we can take oaths and encourages it. Matthew 5:34 says “swear (make an oath) not at all.”

25) Can we get married? Genesis 2:18, 1:28, Matthew 19:5 & Hebrews 13:4 all insist marriage is honorable. Marriage is disapproved and scorned in 1 Corinthians 7:1 & 7:7-8.

26) Can we commit adultery? Exodus 20: 14 “thou shalt not commit adultery.” Also see Hebrews 13:4. Now look at Numbers 31:18, Hosea 1:2 & 2:1-3 where adultery is advocated by God.

27) Can we drink alcohol? Proverbs 31:6-7, 1 Timothy 5:23 & Psalms 104:15 all encourage drinking and intoxication. Proverbs 20:1 & 23:31-32 discourage drinking and intoxication.

28) Do women have rights? Genesis 3:16 “And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” 1 Timothy 2:12 says a woman must not teach, remain silent and must be subjugated to her man. 1 Corinthians 14:34 & 1 Peter 3:6 both say that women have limited rights and are under control of their men. Judges 4:4, 14-15, 5:7, Acts 2:18 & 21:9 all tell of powerful women who were not subjugated by men and were not punished for their authority of men.

29) Should we obey our masters with usurped authority? Colossians 3:22-23 & 1 Peter 2:18 says we should. 1 Corinthians 7:23 “Be not ye the servants of men.” Also see Matthew 4:10 & 23:10 which say we should not submit usurped to our masters.

30) Was the law of the Old Testament destroyed by Christ’s crucification? Luke16:16, Ephesians 2:15 & Romans 7:6 says that the old law is no longer binding. Yet Matthew 5:17-19 and MANY other verses say that the old law is forever binding. If you want to see the many verses that command we follow the old law please consult the upper portion of this page.

31) Should we swear an oath? Numbers 30:2 “If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath…he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.” Genesis 21:22-24 & 31 “…swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me…And Abraham said, I will swear…Wherefore he called that place Beersheba [“Well of the oath”]; because there they sware both of them.” Hebrews 6:13-17 “For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself…for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability ofhis counsel, confirmed it by an oath.” See also Genesis 22:15- 19, Genesis 31 :53, & Judges I 1 :30-39. So apparently it is okay to swear an oath, we even do this on the Bible in American courts. Just try and forget these verses: Matthew 5:34-37 “But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven…nor by the earth…Neither shalt thou swear by thy head…But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.”

James 5:12 “…swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.”

32) Do we keep the Sabbath? Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.” Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.” Numbers 15:32-36 “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.” Each of these contradict Isaiah 1:13 “The new moons and Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity.“ John 5:16 “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the Sabbath day. “Colossians 2:16 “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days.”

33) Should we make graven images? Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven…earth ... water.” Leviticus 26:1 “Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone.” Deuteronomy 27:15 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.” Okay, I got it I shouldn’t produce a thing in fear of making a graven image, but wait: Exodus 25:18 “And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.” I Kings 7:15-16 & 23-25 “For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass…and two chapiters of molten brass…And he made a molten sea…it stood upon twelve oxen ... [and so on]”

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Obviously I'm not going to respond to that whole wall of text you copied and pasted, but you can pick up to two of those which I'll address. I already addressed "slavery" in the slavery thread which you can go read.

(November 3, 2014 at 12:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(November 3, 2014 at 12:26 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: And I'm against that, as are many others. Additionally, the death penalty is a punishment for an actual and real crime such as murder, and not an imaginary crime like blasphemy or worshipping other gods which just seems to hurt God's feelings. Also additionally, the death penalty is administered to the individual(s) who committed the crime and not to their sons or friends or parents or town, something which your God also seems to have trouble with.

Yes, if any of us waltzed into a town with our gang and slaughtered everyone because they offended us, we'd be monsters. Somehow when your God does this (to the entire world, even) he's 'moral'.

The thing is that were all going to die anyway, the 70 years that you spend on the earth is just a blink in time, in other words, you're going to be dead a lot longer than your time living on this earth, which is a privilege not a right, so make the best of it.

If you transgress the laws of God, he has every right to shorten your time on the earth(which is already short). It's kinda like trying to distinguish between 1/100 and 1/1000 of a second, if your life is cut short somewhere in between, does it matter? We all will return back to where we came from.

And again, you're just defending God's immorality by saying "He just has that right".

(November 3, 2014 at 12:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote:

(November 3, 2014 at 12:47 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: The thing is that were all going to die anyway, the 70 years that you spend on the earth is just a blink in time, in other words, you're going to be dead a lot longer than your time living on this earth, which is a privilege not a right, so make the best of it.

If you transgress the laws of God, he has every right to shorten your time on the earth(which is already short). It's kinda like trying to distinguish between 1/100 and 1/1000 of a second, if your life is cut short somewhere in between, does it matter? We all will return back to where we came from.

Your listed religious views become more ironic with every post. I've already "been dead" for far longer than I've been alive. I don't recall that being any sort of priviledge, I don't recall having had any means to make the best of that. I'm not even sure that these concepts can be arranged thusly and yield a coherent statement about, well - anything.

Your comments as to the rights of a god are vacuous. However, your comments about what matters are pregnant with insightful points of inference. As I've had occasion to mention to another poster similarly afflicted of late - I'm sure that death at the ripe old age of 5 is washed of meaning (and particularly of any inconvenient negative implications for the religion you believe in) by candy, forever. Sounds legit.

If it doesn't matter whether or not your life is cut short I hope you leave a scathing letter in your last will and testament about the pettiness of the courts for prosecuting whomever may, in some unfortunate and hopefully never to be realized situation - prematurely put an end to you.

Maybe you missed the part where I said that children cant "die". The word "death" simply means "separation", those that are "in christ" are not separated from God. Sure, the death of a 5 year old child is sad... for us that remain here. But is it sad to him?

If I can illustrate it this way, if we take an unborn child whose only world is it's mothers womb, how can we begin to express what the outside world is like compared to the womb? The process of birth is painful and traumatic for both the mother and child, but after experiencing the outside world, would you want to return to the womb?

So why then do we think that those people that are with God, want to come back here? We cant begin to imagine what it's like there, the same way a unborn child can't begin to imagine what the outside world is like.