I think the amount of pain people feel, and their wish for themselves and others not to die, betrays their stated belief in any afterlife. The body just isn't willing to go all in on that one.

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I think it's much more that people like to think, or even need to think, there is an afterlife. But they don't really believe it. Maybe some do, I don't know, like the woman who killed her children.

(December 22, 2014 at 12:24 pm)robvalue Wrote: I think it's much more that people like to think, or even need to think, there is an afterlife.

The afterlife is the whole purpose of religion, any religion. That's what's so sad about it, since people are sacrificing their here and now on the altar of some reward waiting for them after death.

That is the real tragedy. To spend so much time, money, effort and devotion to something which isn't even real. It's just one of the reasons that I hope to get people to examine their beliefs; I hope they will eventually free themselves from this scam.

(December 22, 2014 at 11:49 am)robvalue Wrote: Errrr.... what? I have no idea what you're saying.

It is indeed beautiful, and summarizes how I feel about life. It's special and valuable because it is temporary, not just some trial run.

Jumping to unjustified conclusions about an afterlife is just cheap comfort, it doesn't change anything, except maybe leading to complacency.

Is there any difference between you and your dog. Once dead always dead. Man is the only creature that's aware of his own mortality. We know we have a end. That's why there's a church on every corner. Most Christians enjoy church and the other activities. Say they're wrong what are they really out? What if an atheist is wrong? If an atheist is wrong he has made a serious miscalculation and made an irreversible mistake.

That's called pascals wager. There are an infinite number of possible religions, so you have effectively a 1 in infinity chance of "picking" the right one. And then you don't believe it, you are just picking it to be safe, I doubt any god would be impressed with that?

And everyone loses. Every second you spend praying, worshipping god etc is a second wasted, and if you pick christianity you're validating all the horrific harm it has done and still does. Same with Islam.

If you just make yourself believe there's some sort of god and some sort of afterlife, then that may not cause too much harm. But I'd rather deal with reality.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just explaining my position, and why I think it's worth everyone examining their beliefs.

(December 22, 2014 at 12:52 pm)strawdawg Wrote: Man is the only creature that's aware of his own mortality.

Are you sure?

(December 22, 2014 at 12:52 pm)strawdawg Wrote: Man is the only creature that's aware of his own mortality. We know we have a end.

I recommend watching some of the videos on the youtube channel kokoflix. It's dedicated to a 43 year old female gorilla, who has been tought to communicate in human sign language while still a baby. It might open your eyes just a little bit wider to our fellow creatures. Watch especially the vids where she learns about the death of her pet kitten and Robin Williams, who visited her once.

There's also a vid about Michael, a male gorilla, who died prematurely, but also could communicate in sign language. He's telling about the death of his mother by poachers in the vid.

Human arrogance is certainly not warranted when it comes to nature.

(December 22, 2014 at 5:47 am)robvalue Wrote: Oh wow, is that you? You've been spying on the forum huh! What do you think of your apologetics?

One thing Drich and I agree on it seems is that there is no loving being looking after this planet.

Maybe he's worshipping satan then? Begging him to be less cruel? That would make a lot more sense than usual Christianity actually.

I'm sorry, was I supposed to care?

(December 21, 2014 at 10:36 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: I was reading some articles about athests who became Christians yesterday. I can't understand how an atheist who has researched the arguments is able to believe in Christianity. I can understand why some athiests might want to believe in Christianity (e.g. falling in love with a Christian, psychological needs, etc.), but I can't understand how they accomplish this feat.

I considered myself an atheist for 20 years, and I fell back into Christianity a few years ago, but I had not bothered to educate myself about why Christianity cannot be true - regardless of voices in our heads, apparent miracles, etc. Now that I have learned about the sausage factory that produced Judaism and Christianity over the past 3000 years, I cannot imagine believing in Christianity ever again.

There is a difference between an atheist accepting that some supernatural power might exist and accepting that this power revealed itself in Judaism and Christianity. I can understand how an atheist can convert to some other religion such as Buddhism, but Christianity...?

Are there intellectually honest arguments that provide a fig leaf for these atheists to convert?

All of the cases I'm familiar with involved a very religious significant other. Although you can't believe whatever you want in the blink of an eye, you can convince yourself to believe whatever you want if you try hard enough for long enough.

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(December 21, 2014 at 11:11 am)Drich Wrote: I converted from atheism

Why were you an atheist?

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(December 21, 2014 at 11:27 am)watchamadoodle Wrote: I can understand how a person who was indoctrinated into Christianity might know the history and still not be able to give up their beliefs.

I think it's understandable that someone raised a Christian might revert back to it. Especially early into being an atheist. There's often some anxiety about whether they were correct the first year or two. I'd be more surprised if someone went Christian->atheist->Muslim or vice versa. Not too surprised if they went Christian->atheist->new age, pagan, or Buddhist.

Oh yeah, if there is an afterlife, then I don't lose anything by being an atheist. I'd rather there isn't, though. One is plenty for me.