(January 1, 2015 at 12:45 am)ronedee Wrote:

(December 31, 2014 at 10:21 pm)tjakey Wrote: I am curious why any believer thinks god is a place to go in time of trouble. Isn't the god aware of the trouble in the first place? If an all powerful, all knowing being is looking out for me, why would I ever be in trouble? On the other hand, if a god is using trouble to provoke some kind of love or worship from me, is that really a being worthy of being loved or worshiped? What kind of god visits cancer on a family to get that family to "turn to him"? Isn't that much like a doctor shooting you in the leg in order to get you into his office? Is that really the guy you want to trust with fixing you up?

And if the trouble is a result of my own stupid choices, why should a god reach down to help me out while ignoring someone else who is in trouble not of their own doing? One comes down with lung cancer from years of smoking. A three year old comes down with a brain tumor. Why would any god who could cure the former allow the latter to happen at all?

Seeking help from a god is one of human kind's more delusional habits.

Well... what "IF" you look at God as your [master mechanic], and your body as a [car], and your spirit as your [brain]?

If you go to your mechanic (God) for regular visits you most likely won't have trouble with your car(body)! If you avoid visits because your(brain/spirit) doesn't think you really need them, at some point the car will breakdown.

At that point, with the advice of your mechanic you will either repair said auto or junk it! The car most times will always be able to be repaired. Unless it is totaled in some catastrophic event, or wears out completely. Which indeed [either] will happen one day!

You will then take all of your life experience and knowledge of: maintenance and repair, trial and error, listening, and not listening to advice, and get a new car.... or graduate to an entirely different mode of transportation!

You see, if you asked any Master Mechanic worth their salt about their [ideal] method of transportation for [themselves]... It would be one that never breaks down. One that never needs fuel, maintenance or repair. One that is without end, for all time! That is what a Master Mechanic wants for himself, and anyone He loves.

So a cancer ridden vehicle isn't the end... its the beginning of a spiritual journey (if we so choose). This existence an eye blind in all eternity! That's how a Christian looks at it.

I also personally believe in Karma.... and getting it "right"! We don't fully know what debt we owe to others in any fashion from the beginning, to the present. How many "cars" have we wrecked? Ours and OTHERS?! How many times have we done this before? When does everything end, and where? We can guess.

But...."All righteousness WILL be fulfilled"!

For me personally, not seeing a physical God, isn't a good enough reason [not to believe]. It is an EXCELLENT reason to FIND HIM!

Matt 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.…"

Well if our spirit is our brain... because who we really are is just electrical impulses in the brain. When our brain or you call it soul shuts down doesn't that kind of mean our "soul" dies and who we are is dead and gone....

(January 1, 2015 at 12:45 am)ronedee Wrote: Well... what "IF" you look at God as your [master mechanic], and your body as a [car], and your spirit as your [brain]?

Then I feel like I'm being targeted by an incompetent con artist who is telling me I need repairs I don't actually need because he wants to take my money and he thinks I'm dumb enough to give it to him.

In other words, great analogy.

(January 1, 2015 at 1:15 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 12:45 am)ronedee Wrote: Well... what "IF" you look at God as your [master mechanic], and your body as a [car], and your spirit as your [brain]?

Then I feel like I'm being targeted by an incompetent con artist who is telling me I need repairs I don't actually need because he wants to take my money and he thinks I'm dumb enough to give it to him.

In other words, great analogy.

LOL! No one is forcing you to go to Him! You probably had a lemon to begin with!

---

(January 1, 2015 at 1:09 am)dyresand Wrote: Well if our spirit is our brain... because who we really are is just electrical impulses in the brain. When our brain or you call it soul shuts down doesn't that kind of mean our "soul" dies and who we are is dead and gone....

Just analogy. Of course you need to have an open mind too!

Look at it this way... no one has ever come back to complain. So, they either go to heaven, or they decide to be "dead and gone". Simple!

(January 1, 2015 at 1:32 am)ronedee Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 1:15 am)Ryantology (╯°◊°)╯︵ ══╬ Wrote: Then I feel like I'm being targeted by an incompetent con artist who is telling me I need repairs I don't actually need because he wants to take my money and he thinks I'm dumb enough to give it to him.

In other words, great analogy.

LOL! No one is forcing you to go to Him! You probably had a lemon to begin with!

You don't really get it... do you...
What if i told you that there is a guy that i can only talk to and you can get to know him by reading a book and praising him for things he may or have not done. And also you should worship him and also if you are rich give away all your money because he hates rich people and he wants you to give all your money and belongings to me.

(January 1, 2015 at 1:37 am)dyresand Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 1:32 am)ronedee Wrote: LOL! No one is forcing you to go to Him! You probably had a lemon to begin with!

You don't really get it... do you...
What if i told you that there is a guy that i can only talk to and you can get to know him by reading a book and praising him for things he may or have not done. And also you should worship him and also if you are rich give away all your money because he hates rich people and he wants you to give all your money and belongings to me.

Noooo... you don't get it! No one "tells" me to do anything!

You don't have "the" concept of God. Just the negative aspects you were brought up on.

God doesn't live in a book, or on someones lips.... or in anyone's words or deeds. Theres a start for you!

(January 1, 2015 at 1:42 am)ronedee Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 1:37 am)dyresand Wrote: You don't really get it... do you...
What if i told you that there is a guy that i can only talk to and you can get to know him by reading a book and praising him for things he may or have not done. And also you should worship him and also if you are rich give away all your money because he hates rich people and he wants you to give all your money and belongings to me.

Noooo... you don't get it! No one "tells" me to do anything!

You don't have "the" concept of God. Just the negative aspects you were brought up on.

God doesn't live in a book, or on someones lips.... or in anyone's words or deeds. Theres a start for you!

The concept of god couldn't be defined by any holy book and or scroll. Because the Abrahamic god cannot exist because that god is too flawed. If a god did exist it wouldn't be loving or hateful but rather neutral to everyone's and everything existence. The concept of yaweh is a horrible one because you have to fear god and yet love him. You have to fear god... and love him... doesn't that bother you....?

(January 1, 2015 at 1:52 am)dyresand Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 1:42 am)ronedee Wrote: Noooo... you don't get it! No one "tells" me to do anything!

You don't have "the" concept of God. Just the negative aspects you were brought up on.

God doesn't live in a book, or on someones lips.... or in anyone's words or deeds. Theres a start for you!

The concept of god couldn't be defined by any holy book and or scroll. Because the Abrahamic god cannot exist because that god is too flawed. If a god did exist it wouldn't be loving or hateful but rather neutral to everyone's and everything existence. The concept of yaweh is a horrible one because you have to fear god and yet love him. You have to fear god... and love him... doesn't that bother you....?

No, not really. Man taints everything he touches. My experiences are through trial and error. Personal experiences. Questions and answers. I keep my mind open to everything. But, I reject anything that doesn't pass the test.

We need to seek within ourselves. Men are NOT a good guide to OUR intuition.

Once we are able to define the concept of God in our hearts and mind it becomes clearer. But, we need to stop thinking as men perceive God. Through religion, or any method other than Jesus. There is a lot of truth in the Gospel. It goes much deeper than the story. Its actually the words within the story.

Its really not something that can be done in an instant. Or even realized within a short time span. It is a gradual understanding, and enlightenment.

And when things start to unfold, it gets easy. You feel this overwhelming Peace and Freedom. Freedom from everything that limits us. Like fear. I can say I have absolutely NO FEAR in me. None! But its taken me 7 years to become fearless.

Like I said... its not been an overnight thing, but a slow, steady evolution.

(January 1, 2015 at 2:51 am)ronedee Wrote: We need to seek within ourselves. Men are NOT a good guide to OUR intuition.

...You don't see anything contradictory in these two sentences?

(January 1, 2015 at 6:38 am)One Above All Wrote:

(January 1, 2015 at 2:51 am)ronedee Wrote: We need to seek within ourselves. Men are NOT a good guide to OUR intuition.

...You don't see anything contradictory in these two sentences?

He just nulled his own argument after reading that line i didn't need to read anymore.

(January 1, 2015 at 12:45 am)ronedee Wrote:

(December 31, 2014 at 10:21 pm)tjakey Wrote: I am curious why any believer thinks god is a place to go in time of trouble. Isn't the god aware of the trouble in the first place? If an all powerful, all knowing being is looking out for me, why would I ever be in trouble? On the other hand, if a god is using trouble to provoke some kind of love or worship from me, is that really a being worthy of being loved or worshiped? What kind of god visits cancer on a family to get that family to "turn to him"? Isn't that much like a doctor shooting you in the leg in order to get you into his office? Is that really the guy you want to trust with fixing you up?

And if the trouble is a result of my own stupid choices, why should a god reach down to help me out while ignoring someone else who is in trouble not of their own doing? One comes down with lung cancer from years of smoking. A three year old comes down with a brain tumor. Why would any god who could cure the former allow the latter to happen at all?

Seeking help from a god is one of human kind's more delusional habits.

Well... what "IF" you look at God as your [master mechanic], and your body as a [car], and your spirit as your [brain]?

If you go to your mechanic (God) for regular visits you most likely won't have trouble with your car(body)! If you avoid visits because your(brain/spirit) doesn't think you really need them, at some point the car will breakdown.

At that point, with the advice of your mechanic you will either repair said auto or junk it! The car most times will always be able to be repaired. Unless it is totaled in some catastrophic event, or wears out completely. Which indeed [either] will happen one day!

You will then take all of your life experience and knowledge of: maintenance and repair, trial and error, listening, and not listening to advice, and get a new car.... or graduate to an entirely different mode of transportation!

You see, if you asked any Master Mechanic worth their salt about their [ideal] method of transportation for [themselves]... It would be one that never breaks down. One that never needs fuel, maintenance or repair. One that is without end, for all time! That is what a Master Mechanic wants for himself, and anyone He loves.

So a cancer ridden vehicle isn't the end... its the beginning of a spiritual journey (if we so choose). This existence an eye blind in all eternity! That's how a Christian looks at it.

I also personally believe in Karma.... and getting it "right"! We don't fully know what debt we owe to others in any fashion from the beginning, to the present. How many "cars" have we wrecked? Ours and OTHERS?! How many times have we done this before? When does everything end, and where? We can guess.

But...."All righteousness WILL be fulfilled"!

For me personally, not seeing a physical God, isn't a good enough reason [not to believe]. It is an EXCELLENT reason to FIND HIM!

Matt 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.…"

Why is it that religious people always assume atheists have never looked for a god? Most of the atheists I know are ex-believers...we not only looked for a god, once upon a time we believed we had found one. Your last assumption is simply false. Indeed, anyone who is honestly looking, who hasn't already assumed there is a god to find or isn't secretly hoping that is the case, isn't going to find any of the human-centrist gods mankind has created - including the Jewish / Christian / Muslim one. This is one of the many, many, claims of the bible are just not true. You have two choices here, admit that your bible got this one wrong, or assume I am lying to you. Which one you pick will say a lot about the kind of person religion has made of you.

And why assume an atheist needs a "physical" god? Are you really so arrogant as to assume that we can't at least imagine a non-corporal reality? Most of what makes human kind human, exists in our thoughts, minds, and social relationships. None of those things are corporal, yet atheists are as involved in the human family as any religious person.

I am one of those master mechanics; recently retired from nearly 5 decades of aircraft maintenance. Your analogy is pretty bad. "God" is defined as the ultimate "master mechanic". Such a creature could easily build the perfect car that required no maintenance, ran forever, and used no gas.

Your claimed god has failed miserably in getting anything he supposedly created anywhere near "perfect". Suggesting that he uses imperfection to lure, coheres, force, or bargain people toward being "better", when he could have just made them that way in the first place, and populated a heavenly realm with them, is really kind of dumb. "A perfect god" who created the universe that we actually observe is the inescapable contradiction of all religion. It is the fundamental flaw that makes all such god claims untenable, and is the true discovery that will end the search of any who seek with an open mind.

On the other hand a self-contained, evolving universe – vast on a scale we barely grasp - yet one in which we are intimately entwined, fits perfectly with what we observe. Human kind is not a fallen species needing a god. We are an evolving, and very young, species that needs to grow up. Waiting for aid from a non-existent god, looking to mythologies long disproved as guides to what is real, makes it unlikely we will survive long enough to grow into anything lasting in the cosmos. Rather than WMDs, religion may well prove to be the one truly fatal invention that human kind couldn't survive.