If they started again with a better book, that was entirely positive, religion could be much better.

But they keep wanting to keep all the slavery, stoning to death and so on. I am suspicious of people who think that is a good thing to keep around.

(January 5, 2015 at 11:13 am)h4ym4n Wrote: Why can't people be good and do good things without giving credit to god/religion.

Why can't people do good things without having to take the credit themselves? Sounds like that's what you are suggesting. Religion, in that case, is promoting selfless acts. Something I think is far better than selfish acts.

It's hardly selfless when you are trying to earn your way into paradise.

I say give credit where it's due. And blame where it's due, too.

(January 5, 2015 at 12:33 pm)ManMachine Wrote:

(January 5, 2015 at 10:49 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: This was sort of a question which arose in my mind from the "is religion child abuse" thread.

Is religion always a bad thing?

I'll go on a limb here and say I think not. I honestly believe that had I not found my faith when I did I would not be here. It was a valuable crutch at a time when I desperately needed one. It was, I now believe, based on a lie, but it was no less effective for that, a "spiritual placebo" if you will. No active ingredient but still gives results.

What say you?

Religion has been around in some form since before written or even drawn records. There is evidence of ritualistic burial going back to Neanderthals.

National Geographic - Neanderthal Burials Confirmed as Ancient Ritual

There also seems to be some evidence of hardwiring for systems of belief.

Belief Hardwired into our Brains?

I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is evidence of a god but it is clearly evidence that belief is important to humans in evolutionary terms, otherwise it would not be hardwired into our brains.

To dismiss religion as fairy tail or myth is to ignore its function, particularly its psychological function. It is easy to bash the social manifestation of this primary function but that is being drawn into the wrong game.

We can only answer the question, "Is religion always a bad thing?" when we understand its evolved function, and we have only recently started down that road. One thing seems certain, it was a good thing, it led to us evolving into what we are now, if it still is remains to be seen.

MM

No, see this is where you are making excuses for religion. "Belief is important". No it is not. Belief is what people THINK is important, yes. But that is not the same as belief being required. We now live without believing the sun had a god which the Egyptians falsely believed for 3,000 years. It did make them successful, but it did not make their gods real. And on top of being wrong, a lot of resources were wasted making monuments to fictional beings which is a flaw in our species that retards human discovery.

The real thing that our species is doing when gap filling to the point of concocting a religion, is the evolutionary aspect of creating groups. More members to that group, more opportunity to make offspring, more chance at survival. And those false beliefs are still not required regardless of the desires of those who hold those false beliefs.

So saying religion is important is false. There are tons of dead religions and dead gods that never were a requirement. Our real survival is due to our cooperation, not the falsehoods we create to foster cooperation.

(January 5, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 5, 2015 at 12:23 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: I find that when a proposition is loaded with the adverbs "always", "never" or the like, it's a good indicator of it's falsehood.

You know what is almost always a bad thing? Black and white thinking. :p

I hope you are not accusing me of black and white thinking.

I wasn't responding to you (in fact, I had not seen your response).

My point is this: the proposition "religion is always harmful" is falsified by providing a singular example where an expression of religion is not harmful. I don't believe that would be difficult to do (at least insofar as I can satisfy my own idea of "not harmful").

(January 5, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If I said we had to get rid of it by force, then that would be black and white thinking.

Non sequitur.

"X is always bad" and "Y is always good" are prototypical examples of black and white thinking.

(January 5, 2015 at 1:26 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(January 5, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I hope you are not accusing me of black and white thinking.

I wasn't responding to you (in fact, I had not seen your response).

My point is this: the proposition "religion is always harmful" is falsified by providing a singular example where an expression of religion is not harmful. I don't believe that would be difficult to do (at least insofar as I can satisfy my own idea of "not harmful").

(January 5, 2015 at 12:35 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If I said we had to get rid of it by force, then that would be black and white thinking.

Non sequitur.

"X is always bad" and "Y is always good" are prototypical examples of black and white thinking.

Context.

In the grand scope of evolution religion is always harmful just like that dormant volcano will always be a volcano. Just like a gun is always a weapon. What happens between the volcano's eruptions, or between the gun being shot, does not change the dangers in them.

Holy crap "expression of religion". You can find nice stories and acts of kindness in all religious writings. That does not mean that religion is harmless. The danger is still in them regardless. Because humans can and do use bad ideas and turn them into religions. And as long as humans are flawed in their perceptions which they are, religion must always be treated as dangerous.

(January 5, 2015 at 11:25 am)whateverist Wrote: I suspect religion can be a positive experience for people and add real value to their lives. I feel the same way about gardening.

So this is your quote then - Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

(January 5, 2015 at 10:49 am)Jacob(smooth) Wrote: This was sort of a question which arose in my mind from the "is religion child abuse" thread.

Is religion always a bad thing?

I'll go on a limb here and say I think not. I honestly believe that had I not found my faith when I did I would not be here. It was a valuable crutch at a time when I desperately needed one. It was, I now believe, based on a lie, but it was no less effective for that, a "spiritual placebo" if you will. No active ingredient but still gives results.

What say you?

All Mormons I've ever met seem to be happy.
Is happiness over a lie an ok thing to be?

Original poster, you have two distinctly different questions.

In the thread title: Can religion be positive?
In the post: Is religion always a bad thing?

My answer to both questions is yes.

Religion can be a positive influence in one's life, but that does not mean religion is a good thing, especially considering that relying upon religion for anything is preferring fantasy over reality. As a rational being, I cannot and will not take the comfort of a false positive, religion, over reality. A positive experience is quite attainable without resorting to delusion.

(January 5, 2015 at 12:41 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(January 5, 2015 at 11:13 am)h4ym4n Wrote: Why can't people be good and do good things without giving credit to god/religion.

Why can't people do good things without having to take the credit themselves? Sounds like that's what you are suggesting. Religion, in that case, is promoting selfless acts. Something I think is far better than selfish acts.

That seems to make sense but then think of all the theists we get through here who think that without god a person would have no reason not to rape and steal to their heart's content. Haven't they taken it a step too far if they think giving credit to god is the only way to achieve good ends? Or don't people who give credit to god think they deserve any credit at all for good acts?

Also, isn't it at all laudable to do really good things for yourself? Like making the effort to get a good education or following through with medical treatments or taking time to meditate or getting exercise. In other words, is it important to leave yourself entirely out of your concerns or is it more a question of keeping self concern proportional?