Actually I hear sociopaths can be successful with the ladies they aren't killing, and being amoral can help you run a successful business. why else would mos politicians be so corrupt? You can look up a list of famous people with schizophrenia. Being successful doesn't mean you aren't crazy, so you shouldn't presuppose that if the voices in your head have led to successful life choices, then it's a god talking to you.

(January 9, 2015 at 2:00 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Praising everything someone does, while ignoring all the things they do that would make you wretch if it was anyone else doing it.

I feel like I've said this before.

That is true, you did. I was specifically asking the OP to define terms so that I can answer the question.

Since I haven't been answered I'll discuss with you. Why should I ignore all mainstream definitions of the word 'worship' and accept your definition? After all I could simply define the word worship as 'eating food.' It would then be easy to show why people should 'worship'.

To answer the original question directly, gratitude. The atheist doesn't believe in a God, thus not a lawgiver, thus not a personal legal debt, and thus not forgiveness from said legal debt. There is no cause for gratitude in the case of the atheist.

But the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.

I'm sure christians would define worship more positively than I did, and the strict definition of the word is likely different, but that's what it boils down to. Giving credit where it may or may not be due, and ignoring all the negative stuff. Making excuses for someone because they're special.

Kind of like these accusations that Bill Cosby raped some women. He's a cultural icon, and thinking he might have raped anyone would be akin to finding out Fred Rogers is in the KKK or something.

They say this god is all just and merciful and loving, but he kills people at the drop of a hat, doesn't help his followers enough that their lives are substantially better in places where they're the minority, and the second you die it's apparently too late to start believing.

Yes it does say the bible sounds foolish to nonbelievers. That doesn't really explain or justify anything in the book. You have to believe it's true before it starts to sound true, but that doesn't make it true.

Well, what does worship mean to you orange? Simply gratitude? I didn't realize there was something to address, sorry.

(January 12, 2015 at 2:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I'm sure christians would define worship more positively than I did, and the strict definition of the word is likely different, but that's what it boils down to. Giving credit where it may or may not be due, and ignoring all the negative stuff. Making excuses for someone because they're special.
Kind of like these accusations that Bill Cosby raped some women. He's a cultural icon, and thinking he might have raped anyone would be akin to finding out Fred Rogers is in the KKK or something.

That doesn't answer my question.

(January 12, 2015 at 2:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: They say this god is all just and merciful and loving, but he kills people at the drop of a hat,

Not true, in timing nor reason. When God revealed to Abraham (Genesis 15) that He would destroy the Amorites and give the land to Abraham's descendants, He didn't destroy them at the drop of a hat. It was done with purpose (due to their iniquity), and in proper timing (waiting for their sin to be great enough that the punishment fit the crime). In fact, Abraham's descendants were held captive in Egypt during the wait.

(January 12, 2015 at 2:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: doesn't help his followers enough that their lives are substantially better in places where they're the minority,

Should God have to earn my worship by making my life substantially better? Why couldn't He earn my worship by forgiving my sin debt?

(January 12, 2015 at 2:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: and the second you die it's apparently too late to start believing.

Why is that wrong?

(January 12, 2015 at 4:29 pm)robvalue Wrote: Well, what does worship mean to you orange? Simply gratitude? I didn't realize there was something to address, sorry.

No problem. I just wanted to understand how you are defining worship. First, to understand where you are coming from. Secondly, to see if it is a definition consistent with the Biblical position.

As for me, the Bible speaks of what perfect worship is, and it may surprise you...(examples include Romans 12:1, James 1:27)

Why would a god want to wait until a group of people become evil enough that he feels more justified in killing them, instead of actually helping them improve their society? Yahweh is often compared to a parent, but if a parent just stands back and lets his child turn into a psychopath, we call him a bad parent and will still punish him for murdering the kid (or telling someone else to murder him) afterwards. Your god is a lazy dick.

Your sin debt that he tells you that you have, and makes you beg his forgiveness for you not being perfect, despite that being out of your control, and threatens abandonment and possibly torture if you don't? I am not perfect. I never was, and never can be. Why should I have to beg anyone to forgive me for that? If someone wants me to dedicate my life to them, they need to do something for me. It doesn't have to be giving me superpowers, or making me the richest, smartest, or most handsome man in the world. I'll just settle for having substantially better life than someone who doesn't worship him, so when I tell someone my life is that way because I pray to Yahweh/Jesus every day, they won't look at me like I said because I pray to Quetzalcoatl every day.

It's wrong because it means you have to do it before you find out if it's true or not. It's wrong because it's a clue that this is more about other people controlling your life than actually worshiping a real god. Once you die, that priest can't tell you how to live your life, and won't get any money from you, dso you have to do it beforehand.

(January 8, 2015 at 9:49 pm)Drich Wrote: Why worship?

God said so.

I like the honest, no bullshit answer Drich. Tell us, why do whatever god says?

I think Jesus himself made the case that God shouldn't be an object of worship, if we take worship to mean submission.

But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desire to be first shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve..." Mark 10

If Jesus was our servant and Jesus is God, then God must also be our servant (as we would be His). As humility is the essence of any true servant, then God must be humble and worship (submission) would be anathema to Him.

(January 13, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Why would a god want to wait until a group of people become evil enough that he feels more justified in killing them, instead of actually helping them improve their society?

21 Does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Did God not give that society moral laws to live by? Laws that would improve their society. Laws that were ignored.

(January 13, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Yahweh is often compared to a parent, but if a parent just stands back and lets his child turn into a psychopath, we call him a bad parent and will still punish him for murdering the kid (or telling someone else to murder him) afterwards. Your god is a lazy dick.

Comparing God to a parent is an analogy. Therefore not all characteristics between the two will be analogous. Certainly you wouldn't say: God is often compared to a parent therefore parents are all knowing.

(January 13, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Your sin debt that he tells you that you have, and makes you beg his forgiveness for you not being perfect,

Where is it written that we have to 'beg His forgiveness'?

(January 13, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: despite that being out of your control, and threatens abandonment and possibly torture if you don't? I am not perfect. I never was, and never can be. Why should I have to beg anyone to forgive me for that?

If your imperfection wrongs another person, do you ask forgiveness for that? If you do it would then follow that your wrongs against God would warrant forgiveness.

(January 13, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: If someone wants me to dedicate my life to them, they need to do something for me.

Like graciously forgiving your sin debt?

(January 13, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: It doesn't have to be giving me superpowers, or making me the richest, smartest, or most handsome man in the world. I'll just settle for having substantially better life than someone who doesn't worship him, so when I tell someone my life is that way because I pray to Yahweh/Jesus every day, they won't look at me like I said because I pray to Quetzalcoatl every day.

I can certainly sympathize with you there, as can the Psalmist. It does seem unfair that wicked people can prosper while righteous one's suffer. This perspective does assume that if I do something for God that puts God in my debt.

(January 13, 2015 at 3:29 pm)Chad32 Wrote: It's wrong because it means you have to do it before you find out if it's true or not.

It's true there is an element of trust involved.

(January 14, 2015 at 4:38 am)Buckaroo Banzai Wrote: I think Jesus himself made the case that God shouldn't be an object of worship, if we take worship to mean submission.

But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desire to be first shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve..." Mark 10

If Jesus was our servant and Jesus is God, then God must also be our servant (as we would be His). As humility is the essence of any true servant, then God must be humble and worship (submission) would be anathema to Him.

Welcome.

Please defend the following proposition: humility is the essence of any true servant.