(March 7, 2015 at 1:01 am)Irrational Wrote:

(March 4, 2015 at 4:48 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Now that I [somewhat] agree with. But there is a difference between loathing one part of yourself and loathing your entire self.

For me, your nature is your self. If you loathe your nature that much, what part exactly is left of you that you do not loathe?

Then I'll ask you again...Why would you love the wrong you do? Think about it. You're supporting that a murderer not hate the part of themselves that willingly committed murder, but rather he/she should love that part of himself/herself, nurture and exhort it.

(March 7, 2015 at 4:04 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

(March 7, 2015 at 1:01 am)Irrational Wrote: For me, your nature is your self. If you loathe your nature that much, what part exactly is left of you that you do not loathe?

Then I'll ask you again...Why would you love the wrong you do? Think about it. You're supporting that a murderer not hate the part of themselves that willingly committed murder, but rather he/she should love that part of himself/herself, nurture and exhort it.

What part of you then do you not loathe that is apart from your nature?

(March 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(March 7, 2015 at 4:04 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Then I'll ask you again...Why would you love the wrong you do? Think about it. You're supporting that a murderer not hate the part of themselves that willingly committed murder, but rather he/she should love that part of himself/herself, nurture and exhort it.

What part of you then do you not loathe that is apart from your nature?

Are you going to answer my question?

(March 9, 2015 at 10:30 am)orangebox21 Wrote:

(March 7, 2015 at 8:59 pm)Irrational Wrote: What part of you then do you not loathe that is apart from your nature?

Are you going to answer my question?

---

I don't loath that:

I have a will.
I am capable of creativity.
I am capable of rational thought.
I am capable of compassion, sympathy, and empathy.
I have emotions.
I have certain beneficial physical characteristics (a higher then normal metabolism, above average coordination, etc.)
I am able to read nonverbal cues very well.
etc, etc, etc.

---

For one this is the major flaw with christianity in whole is to say everyone is flawed and shouldn't love anything they do and should feel bad for feeling good and doing things they love. So what would be the point to doing anything if you feel bad.

Your question is a loaded question. One shouldn't be obliged to answer loaded questions.

(March 9, 2015 at 10:30 am)orangebox21 Wrote: I don't loath that:

I have a will.
I am capable of creativity.
I am capable of rational thought.
I am capable of compassion, sympathy, and empathy.
I have emotions.
I have certain beneficial physical characteristics (a higher then normal metabolism, above average coordination, etc.)
I am able to read nonverbal cues very well.
etc, etc, etc.

So your will and your capability to feel compassion, sympathy, and empathy for others are separate from your nature? Then what constitutes your nature exactly?

When I was an evangelical Christian, these were all considered part of my human nature tainted by sin.

It seems to me like you're saying you don't have a sinful nature but only sinful thoughts/actions???

(March 9, 2015 at 11:26 am)dyresand Wrote:

(March 9, 2015 at 10:30 am)orangebox21 Wrote: Are you going to answer my question?

---

I don't loath that:

I have a will.
I am capable of creativity.
I am capable of rational thought.
I am capable of compassion, sympathy, and empathy.
I have emotions.
I have certain beneficial physical characteristics (a higher then normal metabolism, above average coordination, etc.)
I am able to read nonverbal cues very well.
etc, etc, etc.

---

For one this is the major flaw with christianity in whole is to say everyone is flawed

Everyone has a sin nature. Everyone has fallen short of the glory of God. Everyone has done wrong. Regardless of your belief system, I hope most people can agree that everyone at one time or another has done something immoral.

(March 9, 2015 at 11:26 am)dyresand Wrote: and shouldn't love anything they do

It doesn't teach this.

(March 9, 2015 at 11:26 am)dyresand Wrote: and should feel bad for feeling good and doing things they love.

So a murder who feels good doing something he/she loves [murdering] shouldn't feel bad?

(March 9, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: Your question is a loaded question. One shouldn't be obliged to answer loaded questions.

Given your position, it is a logical and necessary conclusion, not a loaded question. A loaded question is one in which either answer would be put you in a position of guilt. You could answer: no, we shouldn't love the part of ourselves that does wrong. Although you've recognized that to answer in this way undermines your accusation against Christianity. So answer the question.

(March 9, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(March 9, 2015 at 10:30 am)orangebox21 Wrote: I don't loath that:

I have a will.
I am capable of creativity.
I am capable of rational thought.
I am capable of compassion, sympathy, and empathy.
I have emotions.
I have certain beneficial physical characteristics (a higher then normal metabolism, above average coordination, etc.)
I am able to read nonverbal cues very well.
etc, etc, etc.

So your will and your capability to feel compassion, sympathy, and empathy for others are separate from your nature?

No

(March 9, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: Then what constitutes your nature exactly?

The basic or inherent features of something.

(March 9, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: When I was an evangelical Christian, these were all considered part of my human nature tainted by sin.

That is a true statement. But as the saying goes, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because my rationale is corrupted by sin doesn't mean I hate my rationale. I hate what my sin nature does to my rationale, and I recognize that rather than use my rationale for God's glory, I use(d) it for ungodliness. After all, God created man in His image, and He created him good. There's nothing inherently wrong with these attributes.

(March 9, 2015 at 3:46 pm)orangebox21 Wrote:

(March 9, 2015 at 12:00 pm)Irrational Wrote: Your question is a loaded question. One shouldn't be obliged to answer loaded questions.

Given your position, it is a logical and necessary conclusion, not a loaded question. A loaded question is one in which either answer would be put you in a position of guilt. You could answer: no, we shouldn't love the part of ourselves that does wrong. Although you've recognized that to answer in this way undermines your accusation against Christianity. So answer the question.

Uh, no. A loaded question is one which has an unwarranted presupposition. It doesn't necessarily have to be guilt-inducing.

You don't know if I do wrong.

Quote:That is a true statement. But as the saying goes, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because my rationale is corrupted by sin doesn't mean I hate my rationale. I hate what my sin nature does to my rationale, and I recognize that rather than use my rationale for God's glory, I use(d) it for ungodliness. After all, God created man in His image, and He created him good. There's nothing inherently wrong with these attributes.

According to your argument, there's nothing inherently wrong with your nature as well. After all, God created man with a nature that wasn't tainted by sin.

I think that maybe, OB..you should speak to your own "sin nature" and not the rest of humanity's. You don't even know a fraction of humanity, might it be more than a little bit ridiculous for you to make statements such as that about -every last one of us-? How much time do you spend telling your neighbors about their "sin nature"? Your friends, your parents.....your siblings, your children? You'll have to forgive me on this (or not)...but......this is one of those things that people say that I doubt get thought through very well - and it's often said so casually that it's easy to forget how horrid, insulting, and baseless such an accusation...even to a person you know intimately, actually is. It's a disgusting comment, particularly in the context you're using it (as a wave of the hand apologetic)....and I think you need to find your shame.

hrugs:

One the murder thing i never mentioned murder did i. In your world view you would say if someone thought of harming someone its like they did it.
That is not a fair system because there is a big difference between thought and action.

If I should be held accountable for the number of murders that have gone on in my head, I would be more evil than Yahweh. Kill count wise, anyway.