(March 19, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: This might seem like a dumb question, but I will ask it anyway. Is it even possible for a person to have no morality?

Oh absolutely. Just look at the actions of a narcissist. You'll find plenty of them who lack morality. The mind fuckery, gaslighting, projecting and blameshifting they use are great examples of their lack of morality.

Throw in a psychopathic narcissist and well... you have the king of the "no morality" people right there.

(March 19, 2015 at 7:12 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(March 19, 2015 at 6:57 pm)daver49 Wrote: How does the "here and now" judge you...right now? Doesn't worry have to do with the future?

You misunderstand. I worry about morality in this life. There is no judgment except by ourselves and others.

Ok, I am seeking understanding here. By saying "this life" are you referring to earthly life in the future that hasn't arrived yet? So, a statement like this would make sense: "I worry that if we keep dumping carbon in the atmosphere, we will have mass extinctions of many animal species."

I was just handed a fortune cookie that read, "Fear is interest paid on a debt you may not owe." Go figure..

(March 19, 2015 at 11:23 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote:

(March 19, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: This might seem like a dumb question, but I will ask it anyway. Is it even possible for a person to have no morality?

Oh absolutely. Just look at the actions of a narcissist. You'll find plenty of them who lack morality. The mind fuckery, gaslighting, projecting and blameshifting they use are great examples of their lack of morality.

Throw in a psychopathic narcissist and well... you have the king of the "no morality" people right there.

Does that mean they have "no morality"? Im sure a narcissist or a psychopath would still have things that they regard as right or wrong.

(March 20, 2015 at 5:32 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(March 19, 2015 at 11:23 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote: Oh absolutely. Just look at the actions of a narcissist. You'll find plenty of them who lack morality. The mind fuckery, gaslighting, projecting and blameshifting they use are great examples of their lack of morality.

Throw in a psychopathic narcissist and well... you have the king of the "no morality" people right there.

Does that mean they have "no morality"? Im sure a narcissist or a psychopath would still have things that they regard as right or wrong.

They hold themselves accountable for nothing (blameshifting). Therefore, they do no wrong. What normal people know to be wrong, the narcissist sees as not their fault and will readily explain away any wrongdoing by conveniently blaming someone else. This is how they work. And even if they do have the slightest sense of right and wrong, they don't care. To the narcissist, they are infallible in every way. There is always someone else or something else to blame.
I have experienced this in dealing with my ex. And even when you show them definitive proof that they are wrong, they still won't believe you. It's just how they operate. This personality disorder is the most difficult to treat because in order for the person with NPD to get treated, they first must admit they have a problem.

(March 20, 2015 at 12:34 am)daver49 Wrote: I was just handed a fortune cookie that read, "Fear is interest paid on a debt you may not owe." Go figure..

I hadn't hear this before. At first reading I think this beautifully summarizes the immoral system that threatens eternal torment if I don't hold certain beliefs that are required because a far distant common ancestor supposedly fucked up.

(March 19, 2015 at 11:23 pm)Judi Lynn Wrote:

(March 19, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: This might seem like a dumb question, but I will ask it anyway. Is it even possible for a person to have no morality?

Oh absolutely. Just look at the actions of a narcissist. You'll find plenty of them who lack morality. The mind fuckery, gaslighting, projecting and blameshifting they use are great examples of their lack of morality.

Throw in a psychopathic narcissist and well... you have the king of the "no morality" people right there.

I disagree that narcissists lack morality. They do have moral standards, they just don't always agree with yours. You probably mean moral accountability.

(March 20, 2015 at 7:57 am)Irrational Wrote: I disagree that narcissists lack morality. They do have moral standards, they just don't always agree with yours. You probably mean moral accountability.

I'm speaking merely from my experience and from the experiences of those in similar situations that I know personally. The narc always has an MO. Always. They hide behind a mask and in order for them to feel good about themselves, they need to mirror their victims. "If" they have any morality, they don't get it honestly. They get it because they are mirroring off of someone else.

(March 20, 2015 at 8:04 am)Judi Lynn Wrote:

(March 20, 2015 at 7:57 am)Irrational Wrote: I disagree that narcissists lack morality. They do have moral standards, they just don't always agree with yours. You probably mean moral accountability.

I'm speaking merely from my experience and from the experiences of those in similar situations that I know personally. The narc always has an MO. Always. They hide behind a mask and in order for them to feel good about themselves, they need to mirror their victims. "If" they have any morality, they don't get it honestly. They get it because they are mirroring off of someone else.

I'm speaking from my experience as well. My father consistently fits the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder (especially the grandiosity and lack of empathy and exploiting people for his gain criteria), and yet I know he has moral principles that he strictly adheres to. For example, he is a strong believer that violence is never the answer to any problem. And, in fact, he never physically abused any of his children or been in a fistfight. As far as I know, he's never stolen anything valuable from anyone. He's never been to jail. He's helped people in need. And he's even felt concern for my health when I was severely ill some time ago. How is that not someone with moral standards?

I'm not saying they aren't difficult and frustrating people, or even dangerous. They are, but it's a bit of a stretch to say they lack morality.

I just read your thread about your ex. I can see what you mean. Even if narcissists in general do have morals (when everything is going fine), they are still damaging and harmful people in times of "war". My father almost destroyed me as an adolescent when I was still living with them. Hope things get reversed and you get to have your children soon.

It's a complicated disorder.

(March 20, 2015 at 8:25 am)Irrational Wrote: I'm speaking from my experience as well. My father consistently fits the criteria for narcissistic personality disorder (especially the grandiosity and lack of empathy and exploiting people for his gain criteria), and yet I know he has moral principles that he strictly adheres to. For example, he is a strong believer that violence is never the answer to any problem. And, in fact, he never physically abused any of his children or been in a fistfight. As far as I know, he's never stolen anything valuable from anyone. He's never been to jail. He's helped people in need. And he's even felt concern for my health when I was severely ill some time ago. How is that not someone with moral standards?

I'm not saying they aren't difficult and frustrating people, or even dangerous. They are, but it's a bit of a stretch to say they lack morality.

Then it is quite possible that your dad is not narcissistic to a point of fitting the diagnosis. All of us have some healthy levels of narcissism in us. For an individual to be dx'd with NPD, they need to fit a certain number of criteria as outlined in the DSM-V.

Grandiosity, Empathy (lack of) and Attention-seeking (exploiting others, per say) are only three out of ten symptoms of NPD. To be diagnosed with NPD, the person must meet five or more of these symptoms.

I don't know your dad. All I know is that I have dealt with a total of five people in my life who met five or more of those symptoms. Each and every one of them seriously lacked morality. Once their mask fell off and they could be seen as they truly were - they didn't seem to care who saw through their facade. They had no filter, no control and didn't care who they hurt to get what they wanted. They have no problem pretending to care about someone so that they could reap some sort of benefit. They don't have to cause physical harm to be dangerous. Mental, emotional and verbal abuse is still abuse and it still hurts the victim.

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(March 20, 2015 at 9:29 am)Irrational Wrote: I just read your thread about your ex. I can see what you mean. Even if narcissists in general do have morals (when everything is going fine), they are still damaging and harmful people in times of "war". My father almost destroyed me as an adolescent when I was still living with them. Hope things get reversed and you get to have your children soon.

It's a complicated disorder.

Thank you. Sadly this is the beauty and the beast of this disorder. They are very manipulative and are extremely skilled at making themselves out to be the victim while the true victim looks like the villain.