(June 30, 2015 at 11:55 pm)oCinjin Wrote: Dear Christians,

The god of the bible has promised, without disclaimer, to grant any request made to him by his followers. 

---

Millions of Christians prayed while protesting on court steps all over the US for their god to prevent the legalization of gay marriage.  No help.  Nine devout parishioners in a bible study were gunned down by a racist in their own “house of god.”  Was god there for them?  No help.  Leave prayer in our schools.  No help.  Leave the bible in our courtrooms.  No help.  Millions of innocent children stricken with Cancer.  No help.  Protect our church in this recent rash of tornados.  No help.  On and on and on it goes.  The pleas and desperate prayers of Christians just keep going unheard and unanswered. 
 
Well Christians, perhaps it isn’t that your god doesn’t like us – it’s that he doesn’t like you…
Hmmm, maybe your god doesn’t appreciate you muddying his name with the myriad of headlines that contain the reprehensible nature of "god-serving citizens."  These are taken word for word from recent news stories:
 
   “Protesters of same-sex marriage were also there, calling others in the crowd perverts”…“Many of the protesters against same-sex marriage were not subtle, shouting and carrying signs such as “Fags are Beasts.””
 
   "I saw you there (at the rally) on the side of the children of darkness. Christ is coming soon. Please don't be lost. The fires of Hell are real."
 
   “it actually says in Leviticus 20:13 that if a man also lie with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them," said Anderson in the just over one-hour session. Prior to that, he had argued that women who wear mini-skirts were dressing like "whores" and that it was inappropriate for women to wear pants.”
 
   “Council of Conservative Citizens a Christian hate group that routinely denigrates blacks as “genetically inferior,” complains about “Jewish power brokers,”    calls homosexuals “perverted sodomites,” accuses immigrants of turning America into a “slimy brown mass of glop,”
 
    “a Christian lawyer living in California has proposed that the state start executing all gay people with bullets to the head.”


      “A gay Tennessee couple was reportedly attacked — physically and verbally assaulted — by a Christian Pastor and his deacons to prevent the same-sex couple from entering the Pastor’s church. Sadly, the pastor is the father of one of the two members of the gay couple. Also sadly, the church members and bystanders did not lift a finger to help the couple or to stop church leaders from perpetrating the crime. Further, initially, local authorities refused to allow the couple to file charges.”
 
     “Campus Crusade for Christ—now rebranded, ludicrously, as “Cru”—is a massive organization, and involved in some of the meanest homophobia-for-export in Africa.”
 

These are real legit stories.  There are thousands upon thousands of these sorts of stories all over the world.  Christians doing horrible things to anyone and everyone they disagree with and using your precious god as the almighty justification to be ignorant violent bigots.  Maybe you can’t catch a break any more because your god is just really sick of you.  Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s nothing more than the ink and paper machinations of primitive tent dwellers, but if you really believe he’s real, I think you should seriously consider that he just really can’t stand any of you.
 
Consider it, don’t consider it … it doesn’t matter.  Your religion is dying and it seems obvious to me that you Christians are the biggest reason for it's inevitable demise.  200 years from now, you will be a joke, and any remaining zealots will be a fringe cult that even your great great grand children will long to be rid of.
 
 
 
 
Ever Sincerely,
 
A Rational Reasonable Human Being

---

The first sentence is doctrinally incorrect. Beyond that, any action by God to shield humans eternally from any possibility to rebel against his authority would severely limit if not eliminate altogether humanity's expression of free will. True freedom of human will implies that some people (or groups of people) can actually chose to asset their will over God's will.

(July 5, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Drippy, only a shithead like you would believe a word of that utter fucking nonsense.  Don't you know that your precious book of shit only made it into the "bible" because the committee voted it in and that not until 419.  Even Martin Luther thought it was a pile of shit.

Grow up, man.  You are embarrassing yourself.

Someone got up on the wrong-side-of-the-bed.

(July 3, 2015 at 10:17 pm)Lek Wrote:

(July 3, 2015 at 7:09 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Just remember, when Jesus returns he will kill all life and destroy the world.   As for those billions of decent Christians it's doubtful if any of them will make it into the gaudy bejeweled gold cube called New Jerusalem since there's no gate for anyone to enter if he isn't a member of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.  

That's okay.  I don't like crowded big cities anyway.  I just want him to give me a place somewhere on the new earth.  Then I won't have to live along side of all those nasty Jews.

I suppose it's possible that you could get a spot on the new Earth.  After all, there's a tall wall around the gaudy bejeweled golden cube called New Jerusalem.  The main problem is that the planet doesn't have any darkness or water or even food except for what's inside the golden cube.  If you can get by without those things you might make it for eternity.

(July 6, 2015 at 2:55 am)snowtracks Wrote: The first sentence is doctrinally incorrect. Beyond that, any action by God to shield humans eternally from any possibility to rebel against his authority would severely limit if not eliminate altogether humanity's expression of free will. True freedom of human will implies that some people (or groups of people) can actually chose to asset their will over God's will.

Not according to this doctrine:


18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. 19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:18-20 (emphasis mine)

Or this one:

7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Matthew 7:7


If your argument is that this is an incomplete view of the doctrine on how god answers prayer, then I'd say there must be some other scripture in your bible that directly contradicts these two, and probably several more. If god's word is so perfect, why does it contradict itself?

(July 5, 2015 at 1:35 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Drippy, only a shithead like you would believe a word of that utter fucking nonsense.  Don't you know that your precious book of shit only made it into the "bible" because the committee voted it in and that not until 419.  Even Martin Luther thought it was a pile of shit.

Grow up, man.  You are embarrassing yourself.

What's embarrassing is you trotting this broken argument to me as if it were your first time.

What you don't seem to get is we are responsible to what we have been given, not what came before what we have been given. If God is not happy with our bible it is on Him to provide the means to change it, as per the scrolls found at kumron.

(July 6, 2015 at 9:10 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(July 6, 2015 at 2:55 am)snowtracks Wrote: The first sentence is doctrinally incorrect. Beyond that, any action by God to shield humans eternally from any possibility to rebel against his authority would severely limit if not eliminate altogether humanity's expression of free will. True freedom of human will implies that some people (or groups of people) can actually chose to asset their will over God's will.

Not according to this doctrine:


18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven. 19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:18-20 (emphasis mine)

Or this one:

7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Matthew 7:7


If your argument is that this is an incomplete view of the doctrine on how god answers prayer, then I'd say there must be some other scripture in your bible that directly contradicts these two, and probably several more. If god's word is so perfect, why does it contradict itself?

Actually it doesn't all you need to 'fix' your broken understanding of these verses is context.

In your first cherry picked group of scripture Jesus is speaking about Forgiveness. In the 2nd Jesus specifically speaking about the Holy Spirit. Two different principles two different approaches.

It only seems contradictory if one blindly assumes Jesus is speak about how to get wishes granted.

(July 6, 2015 at 9:23 am)Drich Wrote: Actually it doesn't all you need to 'fix' your broken understanding of these verses is context.

In your first cherry picked group of scripture Jesus is speaking about Forgiveness. In the 2nd Jesus specifically speaking about the Holy Spirit. Two different principles two different approaches.

It only seems contradictory if one blindly assumes Jesus is speak about how to get wishes granted.

You apologists kick that word "context" around like a magic, argument-disrupting rugby ball. I do not think it means what you think it means.


For one thing, my first example is in context. The relevant verse is 19, and the other verses provide background for what's being talked about. Scholars understand this passage to be (among other things) about the strength of prayer in numbers. It is consistently interpreted this way by christian laymen and scholars alike, and to claim it should not be read that way is an argumentative tactic and not representative of the meaning of the text.


That second example has not a damn thing to do with the holy spirit. Here it is again, this time in the context of ALL of chapter 7:

---

Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
Ask, Seek, Knock
7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

---

That's pretty much just a straight run of parables. Here's my breakdown of the meaning of each one:

---

The first is the warning not to judge unless you want to be judged, which includes the parable of the Speck and the Log. This parable is generally taken to mean that before you approach another about sin in his life, you must first make sure you yourself are blameless before god so your judgement won't be clouded or called into question. If you think it means something about the holy spirit, prove it.


The second passage is the Ask, Seek, Knock section. Jesus repeats twice that if they ask/seek/knock in his name it will be given/found/opened. He then goes on to say that just as the listeners, "who are evil," know how to give their children bread and fish instead of stones and snakes, so too will their father in heaven give them all good things.


The next passage is the one about narrow and wide gates. This parable is pretty straightforward; Jesus is saying that he is the only way to god, and that the way he calls them to is not easy. Just remember...the wide gate goes to hell.


Next we have the warning about false prophets being like wolves in sheep's clothing and about the fact that some people who thought they had the whole christianity thing right will still go to hell (which is kind of fucked up, if you think about it...oh wait...).


Finally, we have the parable of the wise and foolish builders, who built their houses on rock and sand, respectively. Storms and floods came, the house on the rock did not fall, the house on sand did. Scholars take this passage to mean that a life built on godliness will stand firm, but a life built on worldliness will crumble. The truth is that life crumbles either way, and people use gods in a failed attempt at comfort

---

So yeah...none of that actually has much of anything to do with the holy spirit, and the verse in question is pretty much talking about how to get your wishes granted, just like the one in the first example.


I'm also amused by the cherry-picking accusation, since you're not in jail for throwing rocks at adulterers or anything.


Besides, if god has this divine plan and has predetermined the outcome of all situations according to this plan for his greater glory because he works in mysterious ways, then what the fuck do our prayers matter? It sounds like he's gonna do pretty much the same thing regardless of what we ask. On the other hand, if prayer has any impact on outcomes, why isn't there any evidence of that?


Prayer is like a self-inflicted combination of hypnosis and fortune telling that operates on confirmation bias and anecdotal experience to convince a person they can control their life by talking to the ceiling and maybe killing a goat...or some gays...

(July 7, 2015 at 6:39 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote: You apologists kick that word "context" around like a magic, argument-disrupting rugby ball. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Lets see then:
con·text
/ˈkäntekst/
noun
noun: context; plural noun: contexts
the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
"the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
synonyms: circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More
"the wider historical context"
•frame of reference, contextual relationship;
text, subject, theme, topic
"a quote taken out of context"
•the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
"word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"

Nope, spot on. Maybe the word context doesn't mean what you think it means.

Quote:For one thing, my first example is in context. The relevant verse is 19, and the other verses provide background for what's being talked about. Scholars understand this passage to be (among other things) about the strength of prayer in numbers. It is consistently interpreted this way by christian laymen and scholars alike, and to claim it should not be read that way is an argumentative tactic and not representative of the meaning of the text.

Well, then you and your "uncited scholars" (Aka your personal opinion) along with your 'banwagon arguement' are all wrong. Below is an example of the context in which Mat Chapter 18 verse 19 is framed.

15 “If your brother or sister in God’s family does something wrong, go and tell them what they did wrong. Do this when you are alone with them. If they listen to you, then you have helped them to be your brother or sister again. 16 But if they refuse to listen, go to them again and take one or two people with you. Then there will be two or three people who will be able to tell all that happened. 17 If they refuse to listen to them, tell the church. And if they refuse to listen to the church, treat them as you would treat someone who does not know God or who is a tax collector.

Verses 15 through 17 Christ is establishing a new command/rule with in the body of believers. (how to approach someone when you catch them doing wrong.)

18 “I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s forgiveness.[c]
Verse 18 Jesus is still speaking in the same breath in which He just issued this edict. We are still talking about sin and forgiveness "When you speak judgment" refers to the judgment made in verse 15.

19 To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask. 20 Yes, if two or three people are together believing in me, I am there with them.

19 and 20 simply rephrases the forgiveness principle to include those who believe that only God can grant forgiveness for sin. (Which would be people like the Pharisees, per their reaction to Jesus when He told the cripple man in the temple his sins were forgiven/get up and walk) For them They would have to petition God to forgive/not shun or stone a sinner. as they would be acting agents of God punishing sin.

Then verse 21 and 22 cements the fact that we are talking about forgiveness and not praying for random stuff we want in groups when Peter Asks :

”21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, when someone[d] won’t stop doing wrong to me, how many times must I forgive them? Seven times?”22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, you must forgive them more than seven times. You must continue to forgive them even if they do wrong to you seventy-seven times.

See pinky context does show us the truth of how Christ intended us to receive verse 19, and it is not the stand alone interpretation you, nor your un-named 'scholars' would have us believe. Matter of fact one has to completely ignore all other surrounding verses and only read 19 to interpret Jesus' words as a blanket Free for all/group wishing ceremony.

Context fixes your supposed contradiction.




That second example has not a damn thing to do with the holy spirit. Here it is again, this time in the context of [b]ALL of chapter 7:

Quote:Ask God for What You Need

7 “Continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 8 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them.

9 “Do any of you have a son? If he asked for bread, would you give him a rock? 10 Or if he asked for a fish, would you give him a snake? Of course not! 11 You people are so bad, but you still know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father will give good things to those who ask him.

Luke 11:

---

The first is the warning not to judge unless you want to be judged, which includes the parable of the Speck and the Log. This parable is generally taken to mean that before you approach another about sin in his life, you must first make sure you yourself are blameless before god so your judgement won't be clouded or called into question. If you think it means something about the holy spirit, prove it.


The second passage is the Ask, Seek, Knock section. Jesus repeats twice that if they ask/seek/knock in his name it will be given/found/opened. He then goes on to say that just as the listeners, "who are evil," know how to give their children bread and fish instead of stones and snakes, so too will their father in heaven give them all good things.


The next passage is the one about narrow and wide gates. This parable is pretty straightforward; Jesus is saying that he is the only way to god, and that the way he calls them to is not easy. Just remember...the wide gate goes to hell.


Next we have the warning about false prophets being like wolves in sheep's clothing and about the fact that some people who thought they had the whole christianity thing right will still go to hell (which is kind of fucked up, if you think about it...oh wait...).


Finally, we have the parable of the wise and foolish builders, who built their houses on rock and sand, respectively. Storms and floods came, the house on the rock did not fall, the house on sand did. Scholars take this passage to mean that a life built on godliness will stand firm, but a life built on worldliness will crumble. The truth is that life crumbles either way, and people use gods in a failed attempt at comfort

---

So yeah...none of that actually has much of anything to do with the holy spirit, and the verse in question is pretty much talking about how to get your wishes granted, just like the one in the first example.


I'm also amused by the cherry-picking accusation, since you're not in jail for throwing rocks at adulterers or anything.


Besides, if god has this divine plan and has predetermined the outcome of all situations according to this plan for his greater glory because he works in mysterious ways, then what the fuck do our prayers matter? It sounds like he's gonna do pretty much the same thing regardless of what we ask. On the other hand, if prayer has any impact on outcomes, why isn't there any evidence of that?


Prayer is like a self-inflicted combination of hypnosis and fortune telling that operates on confirmation bias and anecdotal experience to convince a person they can control their life by talking to the ceiling and maybe killing a goat...or some gays...
[/quote]

An accurate exegesis of scriptural context is not limited to adjacent passages, but must also include other teachings on the subject. for example in this case when I said 'context' I was directly speaking to mat 7:9-11 and it's match in Luke 11:9 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”


Clearly when Jesus is preaching the sermon on the mount in mat 7 verse 9 He is pointing back to the larger/more complete teaching recorded in Luke 11. How do I dare say this? Because is it word for word minus the parable and the summary. You can't accept one version, and ignore an expanded teaching on the very same quote.

(July 1, 2015 at 11:04 pm)Nope Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 9:48 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Holocaust
Black Plague
Great Famine
Armenian Genocice
etc

All horrible events to be sure.

Tell me, nope, which of these things - which produced great suffering - would automatically endanger the immortal soul of one caught up in it?

So, your god doesn't give a damn about human suffering or children dying as long as two women don't go down on each other? Really? I think that we have solved the question as to whether your deity is good or evil.

Try to focus very carefully on the following question:

Tell me, nope, which of these things - which produced great suffering - would automatically endanger the immortal soul of one caught up in it?

(July 8, 2015 at 4:47 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(July 1, 2015 at 11:04 pm)Nope Wrote: So, your god doesn't give a damn about human suffering or children dying as long as two women don't go down on each other? Really? I think that we have solved the question as to whether your deity is good or evil.

Try to focus very carefully on the following question:

Tell me, nope, which of these things - which produced great suffering - would automatically endanger the immortal soul of one caught up in it?

Randy, the immortal soul is not the only thing worth considering. Why try to pull focus to this one particular issue when, in every other context, you'd most likely understand the value of temporal suffering?