Open Letter To Christians

[robvalue]

Don't worry, it's not just you. I am dumbfounded every single day that anyone gives any credence to anything the bible has to say (further to a few bits of history).

That kind of all-accepting and magical thinking is about as far removed from my own thinking as you can get.

What amazes me is when people come up with ad-hoc rationalizations about what happened 2000 years ago; or even more incredible, about god's inner thoughts and motivations.

[professor]

Tubby, as attested in the last 2 U.S. elections- there are a multitude of people exactly like yourself.
Most of the posts here come from a point of view reflecting how we got to where we are now.
It really is an alien idea now, that the one who creates is the one who owns.

The last Pharaoh is here, and will meet a parallel end as the one who drowned with his army.
We used to wonder what it meant concerning him: "He will have nor regard for the desire of women"
We thought, maybe it means he won't care about the desires of women in general.
Ah, but now we know.
Just like the men of Sodom- he does not desire women.
And just like Pharaoh and the Sodomites- if you are here for their end- it won't be pretty.

[robvalue]

Yeah, I already went through the story of Sodom. They were Angels, not men. I guess I'm talking to myself

The towns people clearly mistook them for men, but it was to the Angels they were attracted; for whatever strange reason. The idea that a whole town was full of homosexual men is more ridiculous than the story itself.

And God had already decided to do in the town, before any of that happened.

Have you actually read the story, prof? Shall I remind you of the incredibly immoral message it contains, which is nothing to do with homosexuality?

[TubbyTubby]

The last Pharaoh is here, and will meet a parallel end as the one who drowned with his army.
We used to wonder what it meant concerning him: "He will have nor regard for the desire of women"
We thought, maybe it means he won't care about the desires of women in general.
Ah, but now we know.
Just like the men of Sodom- he does not desire women.
And just like Pharaoh and the Sodomites- if you are here for their end- it won't be pretty.

You see, I'm pretty ignorant of the bible to be honest prof but, regardless, when someone writes words like 'pharaoh' and 'sodomite' I genuinely struggle to understand the process that makes you think it is in any way relevant to you or anyone else. These are ancient tales from the desert, that's all they are to me.

[Esquilax]

Hey, do you think you could try making one post without all this grandstanding? It reads like wishful thinking.

Your really funny, grandstanding really, you were the one who started this off by trying to make me look like I don't know the scriptures, when we know it's you that's Biblical ignorant. You're just like a first grader who wants to tell everyone what they believe and when one stands up to you you go home crying, we've seen this here time and again. Get over it and grow up or go join Minny in the sandbox.

So... no, then?

You watch to much Hollywood drama for your info, the scriptures do not say Moses and Aaron burst, in before Pharaoh and the guards wouldn't allow such an intrusion, their lives depended on protecting Pharaoh.

Moses and Aaron entered Pharaoh's place without permission, passing the guards in such a way that he was shocked that they'd made it to him. I actually went back and read the relevant scriptures before my last post to confirm this, so I know which parts of your desperate excuses are and are not present in the text; suffice it to say that I shan't be engaging with the self serving interpretations of a fantasist like you, and will be sticking to the actual scripture... which I had done in my last post.

Here's a break down of Pharaoh's denials and God's action towards them.

Exodus 5:2 .....I (Pharaoh) will not let the people of Israel go.  This is Pharaoh's first refusal and nothing is said of God hardening his heart.

Yes, and no evidence is offered either: Moses and Aaron just roll up and demand that he let their people go because of something they claim to have experienced, but Pharaoh had not. If I'd come up to you and demanded you do something based on the command of a god that I claim to exist, but you have no evidence for, would you do what I say?

Moses was told by God He would harden Pharaoh's heart when Moses and Aaron meet with Pharaoh the second time and this is recorded in Exodus 7:13  Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD said.

So here's where god starts his magic brainwashing campaign to make it impossible for Pharaoh to obey god in any case.

This happened after the plague of gnats, Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Nothing in this passage leads one to believe God had hardened his heart again.

Nothing in the passage prior leads one to believe that god's heart-hardening was temporary, either. Nor that god had rescinded his brainwashing; this is just you making shit up that isn't in the text in order to excuse god, but neither of us has any evidentiary leg up in this case. The last thing we hear on this issue is "god hardened Pharaoh's heart," after all.

This happens after the plague of flies. Exodus 8:25 Then Pharaoh called Moses and Aaron and said, "Go, sacrifice to your God within the land."  Then in Exodus 8:28 So Pharaoh said, "I will let you go to sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only you must not go very far away. Plead for me. Here Pharaoh has started to relent showing God had not yet permanently hardened his heart.

Or it could be Pharaoh desperately struggling against god's brainwashing because his rational mind has had sufficient evidence to change, but god won't let him. See? I can make things up that aren't present in the text too!

[professor]

Tubby, I can think of 2 logical reasons for the study of history.
It gives continuity to our understanding of society and how we got where we are.
It gives a reason to avoid the bad circumstances of the past.
Because of that, it is wise to realize what went before does have an effect upon the here and now.

However, it is always said, what we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.
I think it is because man is unchanging.
History does repeat.
 We currently have a pharaoh and a Sodom situation.  

Rob, I am very aware of the story of lot, besides the rampant homosexual population (because you live in a world heavily moderated by the influence of ancient Israel and Christianity- you fail to realize, in the old world there was only the penetrator and the penetrated when it came to sexuality, women, boys, children, temple prostitutes of both sexes was the norm.
 Thus an entire city of homos was extreme, but not out of the realm of possibility.)

God also stated (in Isaiah I think) that the sin of Sodom was PRIDE, gluttony and unconcern for others.

Sodom apparently sat on a petroleum source (slime pits were there, are tar, which comes from oil) so again. a similarity exists between Sodom and America. 
At some point Sodom hit God's Red Line and unlike the the AntiOchrist who's line disappears with time- God's line does not.

[Lek]

Dear Christians,

The god of the bible has promised, without disclaimer, to grant any request made to him by his followers.  Millions of Christians prayed while protesting on court steps all over the US for their god to prevent the legalization of gay marriage.  No help.  Nine devout parishioners in a bible study were gunned down by a racist in their own “house of god.”  Was god there for them?  No help.  Leave prayer in our schools.  No help.  Leave the bible in our courtrooms.  No help.  Millions of innocent children stricken with Cancer.  No help.  Protect our church in this recent rash of tornados.  No help.  On and on and on it goes.  The pleas and desperate prayers of Christians just keep going unheard and unanswered. 
 
Well Christians, perhaps it isn’t that your god doesn’t like us – it’s that he doesn’t like you…
Hmmm, maybe your god doesn’t appreciate you muddying his name with the myriad of headlines that contain the reprehensible nature of "god-serving citizens."  These are taken word for word from recent news stories:
 
   “Protesters of same-sex marriage were also there, calling others in the crowd perverts”…“Many of the protesters against same-sex marriage were not subtle, shouting and carrying signs such as “Fags are Beasts.””
 
   "I saw you there (at the rally) on the side of the children of darkness. Christ is coming soon. Please don't be lost. The fires of Hell are real."
 
   “it actually says in Leviticus 20:13 that if a man also lie with mankind as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, they shall surely be put to death, their blood shall be upon them," said Anderson in the just over one-hour session. Prior to that, he had argued that women who wear mini-skirts were dressing like "whores" and that it was inappropriate for women to wear pants.”
 
   “Council of Conservative Citizens a Christian hate group that routinely denigrates blacks as “genetically inferior,” complains about “Jewish power brokers,”    calls homosexuals “perverted sodomites,” accuses immigrants of turning America into a “slimy brown mass of glop,”
 
    “a Christian lawyer living in California has proposed that the state start executing all gay people with bullets to the head.”


      “A gay Tennessee couple was reportedly attacked — physically and verbally assaulted — by a Christian Pastor and his deacons to prevent the same-sex couple from entering the Pastor’s church. Sadly, the pastor is the father of one of the two members of the gay couple. Also sadly, the church members and bystanders did not lift a finger to help the couple or to stop church leaders from perpetrating the crime. Further, initially, local authorities refused to allow the couple to file charges.”
 
     “Campus Crusade for Christ—now rebranded, ludicrously, as “Cru”—is a massive organization, and involved in some of the meanest homophobia-for-export in Africa.”
 

These are real legit stories.  There are thousands upon thousands of these sorts of stories all over the world.  Christians doing horrible things to anyone and everyone they disagree with and using your precious god as the almighty justification to be ignorant violent bigots.  Maybe you can’t catch a break any more because your god is just really sick of you.  Don’t get me wrong, I think he’s nothing more than the ink and paper machinations of primitive tent dwellers, but if you really believe he’s real, I think you should seriously consider that he just really can’t stand any of you.
 
[color=black][size=small][font=Arial, sans-serif]Consider it, don’t consider it … it doesn’t matter.  Your religion is dying and it seems obvious to me that you Christians are the biggest reason for it's inevitable demise.  200 years from now, you will be a joke, and any remaining zealots will be a fringe cult that even your great great grand children will long to be rid of.

And let's not forgot those great atheists of the 20th and 21st centuries : Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un, along with many other loving atheists who were responsible for way more slaughter of innocents than any christians of the time. I suggest you get off your high horse and stop preaching hate and defaming billions of decent christians.

[Longhorn]

And let's not forgot those great atheists of the 20th and 21st centuries : Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un, along with many other loving atheists who were responsible for way more slaughter of innocents than any christians of the time. I suggest you get off your high horse and stop preaching hate and defaming billions of decent christians.

Hitler drank water, Lek. Are you a nazi?

Do you guys ever get tired of this argument?Name one dictator who killed in the name of atheism. Because there's a long list of christians murdering in the name of god.

And if we're talking about preaching hate, aren't you the one who said same sex relationships are immoral not too long ago?

[Lek]

And let's not forgot those great atheists of the 20th and 21st centuries :  Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un, along with many other loving atheists who were responsible for way more slaughter of innocents than any christians of the time.  I suggest you get off your high horse and stop preaching hate and defaming billions of decent christians.

Hitler drank water, Lek. Are you a nazi?

Do you guys ever get tired of this argument?Name one dictator who killed in the name of atheism. Because there's a long list of christians murdering in the name of god.

And if we're talking about preaching hate, aren't you the one who said same sex relationships are immoral not too long ago?

You're making my point for me. I don't align myself with those who disobey Jesus and preach hate. I'm just making the point that christians don't have a monopoly on hating and killing. In fact, when anybody does that, they are going against the teachings of christianity. Since when is thinking someone is acting immorally hating that person. If I think someone is doing something wrong does that mean I hate them? Do you hate christians when you blast their immorality? I don't think that all those vocal Democrats in the political forum actually hate all Republicans.

[Longhorn]

You're making my point for me. I don't align myself with those who disobey Jesus and preach hate. I'm just making the point that christians don't have a monopoly on hating and killing. In fact, when anybody does that, they are going against the teachings of christianity. Since when is thinking someone is acting immorally hating that person. If I think someone is doing something wrong does that mean I hate them? Do you hate christians when you blast their immorality? I don't think that all those vocal Democrats in the political forum actually hate all Republicans.

Name one dictator that killed in the name of atheism or your argument falls.

You countered the claim that christians do nasty things in the name of god with atheists doing nasty things not in the name of atheism.

It doesn't matter whether YOU think they're going against the teachings of christianity or not. They believe in your god, they are christians and that's the reason for their actions.

You preach discrimination. 'I love you, but I don't think you deserve equal treatment'? No. That is not love.