Finely-tuned universe wanted: Intelligent Designers need not apply.

[loganonekenobi]

Can I steel this and use it on another forum?  It would drive the xtians crazy.

Only if you use your own forge.

being vulcan and all a forge would come naturally.

[RozKek]

Apophenia - "Apophenia is the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data." (From wikipedia)

Excuse me people, Apophenia is "The human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data"
My copy paste earlier didn't include random for some reason :o

[Little lunch]

Copy paste didn't work?
Or a more mysterious forces at work?

[RozKek]

Copy paste didn't work?
Or a more mysterious forces at work?

Yeah, I think it was that damn spaghetti monster.

[Chas]

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

If you find that funny, Chaddy-boy, then you also must reject any version of the so-called 'fine-tuning' argument.

[Won2blv]

Stated more simply: If God himself cannot create life under any other conditions, then he designed nothing, but only discovered the one way in which a life-sustaining universe could be constructed. If God could create sustainable life in any type of universe, then our universe is nothing special and thus not finely-tuned.

I really don't understand this. It seems like you're saying that because god chose to create the universe in the manner he did, it was because it was the only possible universe for him to create? I am sure you have heard the illustration that if water was to flow into a hole the water may conclude that the hole was perfectly made for it right? But the point of that illustration is finding meaning in a random event. But it seems like you're saying that if I dug a hole and filled it with water then it would discredit my digging and filling that hole because it was the only possible hole to support that amount of water? I don't get it...

[robvalue]

Nah, people who make this argument say that if the constants were a little different, life wouldn't have developed. So god managed to fine tune it to the exact right place.

Clearly God is constrained by some other factor in this instance, if he can't just make life work under any circumstances he wants. He's having to find ways around these arbitrary obstacles that appeared out of nowhere. He solved the puzzle, rather than actually making the rules in the first place.

If God could have made it work under any circumstances, the whole argument is bogus. No fine tuning was needed in the first place.

[ignoramus]

[JuliaL]

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What if there actually are good arguments for religion
But religious people are just too dumb to come up with them?

They'll eventually exhaust the available solution space  Random walk.

[LadyForCamus]

However, if our “finely-tuned” universe is the only universe capable of supporting intelligent life, then a being creating our universe would have absolutely no design decisions to make. Universe creation would be an act of discovering the only physics which could work, not design. Thus, an intelligent designer would be completely limited by a host of physical laws he himself could not significantly manipulate if he wanted to sustain life. These constraints would absolutely limit even a God. On the other hand, if life could be sustained in a vast array of universes with very different parameters set at the whim of an omnipotent designer, then our particular universe could no longer be considered finely-tuned as it would merely be one of many universe types capable of sustaining life.

Whatever, Chad. I'm still waiting for you to answer RedBeard's question of why it would be illogical for an omnipotent being to act against its nature.