What beliefs would we consider reasonable for a self proclaimed Christian to hold?

[vorlon13]

Joseph Smith could have been nipped in the bud my way.

12 million souls (and that's just the ones alive today) are denied Salvation because of that demon and his 'visions'.

[Angrboda]

You mean she didn't remember anything between the time of her NDE and the time of her heart being restarted?  Oh say it isn't so!  It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that she was under anesthesia and basically dead, could it?  The parts of her NDE which can be correlated with events in the operating room clearly occurred while she was fully conscious.

Are you saying she was fully conscious during  the entire operation? Her eyes were taped shut and she was still able to describe surgical instruments and the surgical procedures used on her.

More at:

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-have-ndes-while-brain-dead.html

[Amarok]

[Whateverist]

So much reason to face palm but just can't keep slapping myself. Back on ignore you go.

[He lives]

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Are you saying she was fully conscious during  the entire operation? Her eyes were taped shut and she was still able to describe surgical instruments and the surgical procedures used on her.

More at:

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-have-ndes-while-brain-dead.html

---

---

Yeah.  Same book.  Thousands of different denominations.  Get 5 preachers from the SAME denomination and ask them about a passage, and you'll get 5 conflicting responses.  Interesting, that.  You would think, if some deity wrote a book and wanted people to follow it, that it would be a lot less confusing.  And you would think that if a deity was actually inspiring it's mouthpieces on earth, the inspiration for a passage would be the same for every preacher.  But no - for thousands of years, what we get is "we have it right and those guys over there aren't REAL xtians".

Yes it is interesting that people have so many perspectives, but we can figure it out if we put forth the effort. Here is my perspective of the Bible:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

---

Are you saying she was fully conscious during  the entire operation? Her eyes were taped shut and she was still able to describe surgical instruments and the surgical procedures used on her.

More at:

https://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-have-ndes-while-brain-dead.html

Her physical brain was not conscious during the operation, but her spirit saw everything that was happening during the operation. When she woke up she remembered everything her spirit had seen. That is how she was able to describe everything that happened. I still don't think you are understanding what I am saying here.

[vulcanlogician]

Her physical brain was not conscious during the operation, but her spirit saw everything that was happening during the operation. When she woke up she remembered everything her spirit had seen. That is how she was able to describe everything that happened. I still don't think you are understanding what I am saying here.

YES WE DO! I read the link you dropped. Half of it was irrelevant, the other half presented a very shaky case. Did you bother to read the article that Jor linked a page or so back? 

Here are some highlights...

Of course, the issue of whether Pam was "really" dead within standstill is an extraordinarily misleading red herring in this context. And it is blatantly irresponsible for Sabom to explicitly state that her NDE occurred "while in this state." As Sabom's own account reveals, her standstill condition had absolutely nothing to do with the time when we know that her near-death OBE began: A full two hours and five minutes before the medical staff even began to cool her blood, during perfectly normal body temperature!
...
About one or two in a thousand patients undergoing general anesthesia report some form of anesthesia awareness. That represents between 20,000 and 40,000 patients a year within the United States alone. A full 48% of these patients report auditory recollections postoperatively, while only 28% report feeling pain during the experience
...
First, there is the observation that only part of her head was shaved. Perhaps she could have guessed this at the time of her experience, but there is no need even for this in order to account for the reported observation. Surely Pam would have noticed this soon after awaking from general anesthesia—by seeing her reflection, feeling her hair, or being asked about it by visitors. And she certainly would have known about it, one way or the other, by the time she was released from the hospital. Indeed, if her hair had been shaved presurgery, or at any time prior to her general anesthesia, she would have known about it well before her OBE. And patients undergoing such a risky procedure are standardly given a consent briefing where even the cosmetic effects of surgery are outlined—if not explicitly in a doctor's explanation, then at least incidentally in any photographs, diagrams, or other sources illustrating what the procedure entails.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...s.html#pam

Why don't you read the article in the above link and see if you think it makes a good/bad attempt to debunk Reynolds' NDE? I read your article (and watched your video). Why don't you give us your opinion on a skeptical assessment of Reynols' claim?

[Amarok]

He will ignore it and just repeat his points over again .Your arguing with a wall.

[vulcanlogician]

If he does, I'm pretty much done with this.

[drfuzzy]

Yeah.  Same book.  Thousands of different denominations.  Get 5 preachers from the SAME denomination and ask them about a passage, and you'll get 5 conflicting responses.  Interesting, that.  You would think, if some deity wrote a book and wanted people to follow it, that it would be a lot less confusing.  And you would think that if a deity was actually inspiring it's mouthpieces on earth, the inspiration for a passage would be the same for every preacher.  But no - for thousands of years, what we get is "we have it right and those guys over there aren't REAL xtians".

Yes it is interesting that people have so many perspectives, but we can figure it out if we put forth the effort. Here is my perspective of the Bible:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

---

---

Her physical brain was not conscious during the operation, but her spirit saw everything that was happening during the operation. When she woke up she remembered everything her spirit had seen. That is how she was able to describe everything that happened. I still don't think you are understanding what I am saying here.

---

"we can figure it out if we put forth the effort"  --  what the hell, are you 12 years old?  Have you STUDIED church history?  Yeah right.  2000+ years and apparently NOBODY has put forth enough effort to stop people from killing each other over whose interpretation of the "sacred texts" is most special to their imaginary friend.  What a pile of crap.

Here's my perspective of the wholly babble, you ignorant egotistical waste-of-oxygen troll:
Ewww.  Quoting from a book that promotes genocide, misogyny, rape, slavery, abortion, infanticide, theocracy, tribalism, magical thinking . . . eww.  
How DARE you?  God - LOL.   Your God doesn't exist.  And you are so craven and ignorant that you completely dodge my reasonable question by not answering it at all, but by quoting that reprehensible pile of crap book.

Quoting the wholly babble.  What an asshole.


HERE'S THE QUESTION TROLL, just in case you were too illiterate to understand it:  Why are there so many different "interpretations" of a book that was supposedly written by an omniscient deity who wants to get his message understood by humanity?  It wants us to understand, right?  Romans 14:11, right?  It's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, and omnipresent, right?  So why can't it communicate?  Why does it allow humans to kill each other over their "interpretations" of its so-called message?  Why is it less capable at communication than the average 10-year-old?

bow the knee lol.  The god described in the bible is not worth a second's worship.  It is the most evil concept humankind has ever invented.

[He lives]

Her physical brain was not conscious during the operation, but her spirit saw everything that was happening during the operation. When she woke up she remembered everything her spirit had seen. That is how she was able to describe everything that happened. I still don't think you are understanding what I am saying here.

YES WE DO! I read the link you dropped. Half of it was irrelevant, the other half presented a very shaky case. Did you bother to read the article that Jor linked a page or so back? 

Here are some highlights...

Of course, the issue of whether Pam was "really" dead within standstill is an extraordinarily misleading red herring in this context. And it is blatantly irresponsible for Sabom to explicitly state that her NDE occurred "while in this state." As Sabom's own account reveals, her standstill condition had absolutely nothing to do with the time when we know that her near-death OBE began: A full two hours and five minutes before the medical staff even began to cool her blood, during perfectly normal body temperature!
...
About one or two in a thousand patients undergoing general anesthesia report some form of anesthesia awareness. That represents between 20,000 and 40,000 patients a year within the United States alone. A full 48% of these patients report auditory recollections postoperatively, while only 28% report feeling pain during the experience
...
First, there is the observation that only part of her head was shaved. Perhaps she could have guessed this at the time of her experience, but there is no need even for this in order to account for the reported observation. Surely Pam would have noticed this soon after awaking from general anesthesia—by seeing her reflection, feeling her hair, or being asked about it by visitors. And she certainly would have known about it, one way or the other, by the time she was released from the hospital. Indeed, if her hair had been shaved presurgery, or at any time prior to her general anesthesia, she would have known about it well before her OBE. And patients undergoing such a risky procedure are standardly given a consent briefing where even the cosmetic effects of surgery are outlined—if not explicitly in a doctor's explanation, then at least incidentally in any photographs, diagrams, or other sources illustrating what the procedure entails.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...s.html#pam

Why don't you read the article in the above link and see if you think it makes a good/bad attempt to debunk Reynolds' NDE? I read your article (and watched your video). Why don't you give us your opinion on a skeptical assessment?

I read the skeptical assessment. Keith Augustine compared the audio plugs to earbuds which are worn to hear music while listening to what is happening around a person. I do not believe that is an accurate assumption. The audio clicks were at 100 decibels and the ear plugs fit tightly into the ears. I believe we can indeed take the doctor at his word that Pam could not hear what was going on around her with her physical ears. Pam described not only the tool (bone saw) and the cutting tips but also the case that they were in. In my opinion I do not believe that she could have ever guessed that the bone saw would have had more than one blade or perhaps two. I know I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't seen it for myself. This is why I believe that this NDE is evidence of the spirit.

---

Yes it is interesting that people have so many perspectives, but we can figure it out if we put forth the effort. Here is my perspective of the Bible:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

---

---

Her physical brain was not conscious during the operation, but her spirit saw everything that was happening during the operation. When she woke up she remembered everything her spirit had seen. That is how she was able to describe everything that happened. I still don't think you are understanding what I am saying here.

---

"we can figure it out if we put forth the effort"  --  what the hell, are you 12 years old?  Have you STUDIED church history?  Yeah right.  2000+ years and apparently NOBODY has put forth enough effort to stop people from killing each other over whose interpretation of the "sacred texts" is most special to their imaginary friend.  What a pile of crap.

Here's my perspective of the wholly babble, you ignorant egotistical waste-of-oxygen troll:
Ewww.  Quoting from a book that promotes genocide, misogyny, rape, slavery, abortion, infanticide, theocracy, tribalism, magical thinking . . . eww.  
How DARE you?  God - LOL.   Your God doesn't exist.  And you are so craven and ignorant that you completely dodge my reasonable question by not answering it at all, but by quoting that reprehensible pile of crap book.


HERE'S THE QUESTION TROLL, just in case you were too illiterate to understand it:  Why are there so many different "interpretations" of a book that was supposedly written by an omniscient deity who wants to get his message understood by humanity?  It wants us to understand, right?  Romans 14:11, right?  It's all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, and omnipresent, right?  So why can't it communicate?  Why does it allow humans to kill each other over their "interpretations" of its so-called message?  Why is it less capable at communication than the average 10-year-old?

bow the knee lol.  The god described in the bible is not worth a second's worship.  It is the most evil concept humankind has ever invented.

Here is the answer in case you can not comprehend what I said. If you want to understand why there are so many interpretations you have to put forth some effort. However I can't see you being able to figure it out for yourself or with help. You are more likely to follow erroneous teachings.