Substitutionary Atonement! WTF?

[Huggy Bear]

Yep.

You clearly have low standards.  I wouldn;t be worthy of worship if I created the universe -and- gifted you with a 12 inch dick.  I wonder if the being you worship is pleased with your feckless allegiance, though?

Yet you deemed someone worthy of worship because they were a good pitcher...

---

He cannot change the law because you cannot enter the presence of God as a sinner.

Therefore if you cannot exist in Gods presence (as a sinner) then you must exist in a place removed from Gods presence, which by that very nature would be hell.

All good things come from God.

If God is love, there would be no love in that place.

If God is peace, there would be no peace in that place.

If God is joy there would be no joy in that place

If to be with God meant the end of fear, you'd know nothing but fear in that place.

If to be with God meant the end of suffering, you know nothing but suffering in that place.

I think you get the point.

Say we use the sun as an analogy for God, if the sun went away would that not cause suffering?

You call yourself an atheist, and by your own volition choose to remove yourself from the presence of God.

You can't blame God for that...

If that's how things were I could blame him for not making himself known to me. The only thing I have heard of God are ridiculous stories which are completely out of step with the world I live in. To make matters worse, there are a plethora of other similar stories of other gods, all equally ridiculous.

For God to create the bizarro universe you describe and not make himself known makes him culpable of all the people who end up in Hell because they were unaware of his existence.

*emphasis mine*

"Seek and ye shall find."

"Ye have not because ye ask not."

You of all people will be found without excuse.

[Chad32]

If that's how things were I could blame him for not making himself known to me. The only thing I have heard of God are ridiculous stories which are completely out of step with the world I live in. To make matters worse, there are a plethora of other similar stories of other gods, all equally ridiculous.

For God to create the bizarro universe you describe and not make himself known makes him culpable of all the people who end up in Hell because they were unaware of his existence.

 But He has, you are arguing against Him, if you had no idea at all you would not be having this conversation. 
Being out of step with this world is exactly what God wants from us, He has said to us, "be holy as I'm holy." God meant that He is nothing like sinful man and that we are to be nothing like the sinful world.

Yes there are many stories about many gods and what those gods have done, yet none have given such a price as the God of the Bible has to redeem man back to himself.
 
 God did not create a bizarro universe, man's sin cause all of creation to be cursed. Before sin this universe was perfect and the only humans that ever saw it in that condition were Adam and Eve. Those who are unaware of Christ will be judged by God in a just and fair way according to His will. However there is enough of the original creation left that God has said that no man can look at the natural world and be without excuse of knowing He created it. Thus knowing He does exist.

GC

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[hide]Who the fuck comes up with this shite!
I like it, but only because it sounds like divine legal gobbledygook. lol!

"Yeah, I know I killed all those people your honour, because I'm a sick fuck, but hey, here, take my 90 year old father instead and we'll just call it even!
  (*whispers* shhhh... don't tell anyone but the old man's got cancer and will be dead anyway soon!)

And people really believe God would come up with stuff like this? When he can make anything happen anyway? Pretty bloody convoluted isn't it?

Obviously it wasn't God as it wasn't "invented" until the middle ages (below).

As an ignoramus, I'm genuinely curious now to know what core beliefs in the current modern day bible are actually original?


https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/artic...atonement/

 All the references you have given comes from "critics," what were you expecting critics to say and how do you believe that they being critics would impress Christians. 

 Christ's death pays for all the sin of those who accept Him as their savior. He is our atonement, that is covering, when God the father see those who have chosen Christ He sees His Son's perfection and thus we are forgiven of our violations against Him, making us sinless in His eyes. This has been the most important thing in the scriptures from the OT through the NT, it is not a middle age concoction. Also to rescue us from a fallen world someone perfect had to die for us, our death can not even pay/atone for our sins. Our physical death is the result of our sin, the eternal punishment is for those who die with their sin, the Christian dies a forgiven person, sinless.

GC

Yes, there are other stories about gods dying for people and rising back up. Jesus wasn't the only one who did that. And yes, Yahweh is a lot like Human dictators who demand worship, and kill you if you don't. He didn't have to curse the world, but he did. The bible chronicles his repeated failures at dealing with Humanity, though he only ever seems to have one solution to the problem. And even when he sacrifices himself to himself, he admits it won't really work.

[Godscreated]

 All the references you have given comes from "critics," what were you expecting critics to say and how do you believe that they being critics would impress Christians. 

 Christ's death pays for all the sin of those who accept Him as their savior. He is our atonement, that is covering, when God the father see those who have chosen Christ He sees His Son's perfection and thus we are forgiven of our violations against Him, making us sinless in His eyes. This has been the most important thing in the scriptures from the OT through the NT, it is not a middle age concoction. Also to rescue us from a fallen world someone perfect had to die for us, our death can not even pay/atone for our sins. Our physical death is the result of our sin, the eternal punishment is for those who die with their sin, the Christian dies a forgiven person, sinless.

GC

Yes, there are other stories about gods dying for people and rising back up. Jesus wasn't the only one who did that. 

But He has because He is the real God, the others never died so they couldn't have been risen, they are not real, they are truly the ones who are hiding away.

And yes, Yahweh is a lot like Human dictators who demand worship, and kill you if you don't. He didn't have to curse the world, but he did. The bible chronicles his repeated failures at dealing with Humanity, though he only ever seems to have one solution to the problem. And even when he sacrifices himself to himself, he admits it won't really work.

 How many time s must the Christians here tell everyone that God doesn't kill people for not worshiping Him. You are judged because you do not accept Jesus as your savior, when you do accept Him you will have no trouble worshiping Him. Worshiping God entails many different things and probably none of the things you would actually admit to. 
 What makes you believe He did not have to curse the world, please show me from the reference book called the Bible because that is the only place that kind of information can come from, I say He had no other choice, man left Him with only the one thing to do, you see there is choice and there are consequences to choice, good and bad.
 The Bible chronicles no such thing, it does show how humanity has failed to listen to Him and the need for a savior for everyone. By the way He did not sacrifice himself to himself, man put Jesus on the cross and killed Him in a extremely violent way. When the Jews sacrificed animals they cut the throat so the animal bleed out quickly and suffered little. Done correctly the animal can still breath and it goes to sleep, kinda' like euthanaisa except for the pain of the cut and with a very sharp knife that isn't as painful as people imagine. God has never said He was wrong because He has never been wrong, millions are saved every year.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

You clearly have low standards.  I wouldn;t be worthy of worship if I created the universe -and- gifted you with a 12 inch dick.  I wonder if the being you worship is pleased with your feckless allegiance, though?

Yet you deemed someone worthy of worship because they were a good pitcher...

What the fuck are you babbling about now, lol?

[Chad32]

Yes, there are other stories about gods dying for people and rising back up. Jesus wasn't the only one who did that. 

But He has because He is the real God, the others never died so they couldn't have been risen, they are not real, they are truly the ones who are hiding away.

And yes, Yahweh is a lot like Human dictators who demand worship, and kill you if you don't. He didn't have to curse the world, but he did. The bible chronicles his repeated failures at dealing with Humanity, though he only ever seems to have one solution to the problem. And even when he sacrifices himself to himself, he admits it won't really work.

 How many time s must the Christians here tell everyone that God doesn't kill people for not worshiping Him. You are judged because you do not accept Jesus as your savior, when you do accept Him you will have no trouble worshiping Him. Worshiping God entails many different things and probably none of the things you would actually admit to. 
 What makes you believe He did not have to curse the world, please show me from the reference book called the Bible because that is the only place that kind of information can come from, I say He had no other choice, man left Him with only the one thing to do, you see there is choice and there are consequences to choice, good and bad.
 The Bible chronicles no such thing, it does show how humanity has failed to listen to Him and the need for a savior for everyone. By the way He did not sacrifice himself to himself, man put Jesus on the cross and killed Him in a extremely violent way. When the Jews sacrificed animals they cut the throat so the animal bleed out quickly and suffered little. Done correctly the animal can still breath and it goes to sleep, kinda' like euthanaisa except for the pain of the cut and with a very sharp knife that isn't as painful as people imagine. God has never said He was wrong because He has never been wrong, millions are saved every year.

GC

As far as anyone has concretely proven, no gods are real. Abrahamic ones, or otherwise.

Worshiping him is exactly what "accepting Jesus" means. And yes, his entire problem with Humanity is apparently that he wants to be worshiped, and is not.

Of course he didn't have to curse the entire world when two people disobeyed him once. It's asinine to think he had to have that much of a problem with it. Hell, that wasn't even part of the warning from before. He said they'd die that day. He didn't mention any world cursing. But instead of doing what he told them would happen, he let Adam live over 900 years, and cursed the world. Does he have control over his powers and how the world operates, or not?

He has never had a problem with inflicting pain on third parties when someone does something he doesn't like. Killing children for the crimes of their parents isn't something he ever had to do. He just felt like doing it.

He has been wrong. Never admitting when you messed up just makes the problem worse, because it means you won't change. How you kill an innocent animal or person doesn't really matter. The fact that you're doing it at all is the messed up part.

[Drich]

Who the fuck comes up with this shite!
I like it, but only because it sounds like divine legal gobbledygook. lol!

"Yeah, I know I killed all those people your honour, because I'm a sick fuck, but hey, here, take my 90 year old father instead and we'll just call it even!
  (*whispers* shhhh... don't tell anyone but the old man's got cancer and will be dead anyway soon!)

And people really believe God would come up with stuff like this? When he can make anything happen anyway? Pretty bloody convoluted isn't it?

Obviously it wasn't God as it wasn't "invented" until the middle ages (below).

As an ignoramus, I'm genuinely curious now to know what core beliefs in the current modern day bible are actually original?


https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/artic...atonement/

Skeptics commonly criticize core Christian beliefs by claiming that they were not really held by the earliest Christians. Instead, we are told, these beliefs were invented post facto by the institutional church.

The classic example of such an argument has to do with the divinity of Jesus. The earliest followers of Jesus didn’t really believe that Jesus was divine, this argument goes; it was only the later institutional church, under political pressure from Emperor Constantine, that insisted Jesus must have divine status. Thus, some argue, the belief that Jesus is God is not really, well, Christian.

Substitutionary Atonement

This same sort of argument has also been applied to other doctrines, particularly the substitutionary nature of the atonement. Critical scholars, led by the classic work of Gustaf Aulén, have long argued that the earliest Christians did not believe that Christ died as a substitute for sinners. Instead, they say, these Christians believed what is known as the “Christus victor” view of the atonement—the idea that Jesus’s death on the cross (and resurrection) conquered the Devil and other forces that held people in bondage. On this view, Christ did not die in place of rebellious sinners but instead rescued victims from a fallen world

Here's you problem with your quotes.. We have 3rd century codices that teach substitutionary attonement. Meaning this can not be a 'middle age construct when the church has 2nd/3rd text that also teach this doctrine.

How the bible is constructed is from a series of codicees.  a codex is a serises of hand written manuscripts derived from as close to the first century as possible but at the same time can also be verified. They must also be complete or near complete. before the dead sea scrolls some where only fragments, but now since then all books can claim 3rd century or even older source material.

Most of the codices used are of the 3rd century, as we have plenty of supporting/verifying material. we have older texts but often times they are stand alone.

There are 5 popular codices from which all "holy Bibles" are translated from. the differences are very minor, but for the more legalistic among us the differences are important. For example one of the oldest codicees used (textus Receptus) has some late writings in it meaning 8th century or later manuscripts, as when this codex was compiled these newer writtings were all that were known at the time (15th century) which when the Receptus is translated to english it gives us "the king James bible" among others.

Well in the mid twentieth century several hundred 1st century writings were found which date back as far as 4 bc. from this several new codicees were compiled.

The biggest comes in the way of one of the 10 commandments. in the original king jame translation we were told "thou shalt not Kill." which could mean the prohibition of the taking of any human life no matter the reason. And in the older version found mid twentith century it is translated "you shall not murder." meaning you can not take life without approval from your superior/governing body.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus

[Huggy Bear]

Yet you deemed someone worthy of worship because they were a good pitcher...

What the fuck are you babbling about now, lol?

Nolan Ryan is the Pres.  Sweet, that guy was my idol when I was a kid in little league.

[The Grand Nudger]

Every time I think you;ve reached peak huggster..you dig deep and prove me wrong, lol.

For clarity, are you comparing your own god....and how you feel about that god.....to how a kid in little league feels about Nolan Ryan....? What part of this do you want me to take seriously?

[Crossless2.0]

Every time I think you;ve reached peak huggster..you dig deep and prove me wrong, lol.

For clarity, are you comparing your own god....and how you feel about that god.....to how a kid in little league feels about Nolan Ryan....?  What part of this do you want me to take seriously?

I love -- LOVE! -- that he dug up a post from August 2011 to make his feeble "point". 

Counting down to the inevitable dictionary definition of 'idol'.

You never disappoint, Huggy.


 


P.S. I have it on good authority that Jesus' fastball sucked.

[Huggy Bear]

Every time I think you;ve reached peak huggster..you dig deep and prove me wrong, lol.

For clarity, are you comparing your own god....and how you feel about that god.....to how a kid in little league feels about Nolan Ryan....?  What part of this do you want me to take seriously?

Worship is simply the feeling of reverence or adoration.

Plenty of kids worship God, so no need to make a comparison with me.

You were saying that the creator of the universe wasn't worthy of worship, but clearly a pitcher is...

lol