On Hell and Forgiveness

[robvalue]

All this brings out one of the worst sides of religion: it's divisive. It frequently states that anyone who isn't in the religion will receive a lesser afterlife (possibly including torture), and that they deserve it. It's a horrible mindset, and one that some people seem to relish a bit too much.

[polymath257]

Think of it this way: 

Theist: god is real / unicorn is real
Atheist: god is not real / unicorn is not real

It is not willful ignorance on part of the atheist when there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of that for which the believer is making a positive claim of existence.

It is not a difficult concept to understand, yet theist tend to make it doubly so merely based on an ignorant adherence to faith.

Faith is nothing of which to be proud or to cling.  It should be discarded, because it is useless.  It corrupts the mind, which becomes more apparent the more we debate.

That reads like a polemic. I wouldn't be so certain. There are things that are evident about the world. People can reason from some of those observations that God exists. You may believe that that specific conclusion does not follow from particular observations, but saying flat out that there is "no evidence" inverts the relationship between evidence and the conclusions one could possibly draw from the evidence. As such it is an unfounded assertion. Let me show you the difference...

Step 1: There is something evident about the world.
Step 2: Some conclusion follows from what is evident.
Step 3: What is evident supports the conclusion.

versus

Step 1: No conclusions can be drawn from something evident about the world.

To be evidence  concerning a proposition (like 'God exists'), the observation has to change the probability of the proposition being true. It *isn't* simply that the observation is consistent with the proposition (if the negation is also consistent, for example). I have yet to see one piece of information that changes the probability that the statement 'God exists' is true in a positive direction. So I deny that Step 2 applies in the case you want to apply it to.

[The Grand Nudger]

Love can be and often is both evil and tyrannical.  We like to think of love like a hallmark card..forgetting the terrible things we may do out of earnest love. The hypothetical is flawed on multiple grounds.  It depends on god not being the christian god, as well as a childish understanding of love - and even in all of that, theres no obvious reason that it would change a persons opinions on the subject of gods.

[SteveII]

What?!

Forget the "pure version". If you don't have a body, you do not have inputs. You don't have outputs. You will not experience anything but contemplation. How in the world could you experience happiness!? That would be torture after like a day or two--not to mention years. That is to say nothing about whatever effect the total removal of God's presence would have on your soul--which you would not have experienced to that point--so who knows what that would be like.

How is not experiencing anything but contemplation a torture? Happiness is an *emotion*. if I can experience pain and suffering (without inputs, mind you), i clearly would have the ability to experience emotions.

Why would 'total removal' from God's presence be any different than the life I have right now? I see no evidence of this deity. I see no reason to believe in this deity. And yet I am perfectly happy without this deity being involved in my life.

I think it is just plain stupid to think a person can be eternally happy with just their thoughts. Humans need relationships, contact, routines, stimuli, affection, etc. etc. or they will go off the rails. Emotions attached to nothing directed at nothing and from nothing become meaningless. Only regret persists. Add to that black void of no inputs or outputs and that is a horrible existence. Your "it's not that bad" is simply ridiculous.

If God exists, you are not totally removed from his presence right now. He sustains the universe (and you) in being by his will whether you know it or not. The point is that know one knows the significance that separation will have on someone's soul.  

---

What's up with you saying every religious notion is delusional? Why can't we just be wrong?

There may well be religious notions that are not delusional, but they are few and far between and I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Being wrong and persisting in belief in spite of the error being pointed out is delusion. So, someone that has a religious belief that is able to learn and thereby reject it would simply be wrong. But that is rare.

For any of that 'God is a delusion' nonsense to be true, you would have to have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exists. There is not a person in the world that could even contemplate that task. So...good luck with that.

[polymath257]

I am trying to make sense of the hypothetical and failing. The hypothetical itself makes no sense to me. it identifies emotions (love, goodness) as a deity. That makes no sense at all.

It doesn't need to "make sense" to you how God can be love. It is a hypothetical. In the Hypothetical, God is love, regardless of whether that makes logical sense to you or not. Are you declining to answer?

If I cannot make sense of the hypothetical, I cannot answer how I would respond. In what sense is 'God' the same as 'love'? it clearly isn't in any way that agrees with ordinary language.

In your scenario, I would go for truth over love, facts over fulfillment. If those happens to be a deity, so be it.

[Amarok]

Since God is love, and therefore joy itself, the absence of Him would mean the absence of joy. So if that is true, then no, it is not possible for there to be any other alternative. The same way that you can't be wet but have an absence of water. It isn't a punishment, just a fact of life. 

Then i'm afraid your religion is false in that regard .

God is good, which is precisely why He allows us to choose Him, or to choose "not Him." He gives us the freedom and independence to be our own person and doesn't force us to accept something we don't want.

That's not goodness

[The Grand Nudger]

Being very thorough, the hypothetical would be as strong a demonstration that my opinions on hypothetical gods are accurate as could be imagined.  Flawed and sometimes inept creatures whose own internal motivations..combined with their vast power in this or that area..led to misery and misfortune and the constant dismissal of lesser creatures, good sense, and even their own best interests.

Whether they are reflections of us, or we them - this is the part that we got right about gods from the very outset - we just don't consider the full implications of that.

[Amarok]

I think it is just plain stupid to think a person can be eternally happy with just their thoughts. Humans need relationships, contact, routines, stimuli, affection, etc. etc. or they will go off the rails. Emotions attached to nothing directed at nothing and from nothing become meaningless. Only regret persists. Add to that black void of no inputs or outputs and that is a horrible existence. Your "it's not that bad" is simply ridiculous.

No that's nonsense 

If God exists, you are not totally removed from his presence right now. He sustains the universe (and you) in being by his will whether you know it or not. The point is that know one knows the significance that separation will have on someone's soul.  

How convenient

[Silver]

I think it is just plain stupid to think a person can be eternally happy with just their thoughts.

Wanting more doesn't mean accepting something unreasonable.

[polymath257]

How is not experiencing anything but contemplation a torture? Happiness is an *emotion*. if I can experience pain and suffering (without inputs, mind you), i clearly would have the ability to experience emotions.

Why would 'total removal' from God's presence be any different than the life I have right now? I see no evidence of this deity. I see no reason to believe in this deity. And yet I am perfectly happy without this deity being involved in my life.

I think it is just plain stupid to think a person can be eternally happy with just their thoughts. Humans need relationships, contact, routines, stimuli, affection, etc. etc. or they will go off the rails. Emotions attached to nothing directed at nothing and from nothing become meaningless. Only regret persists. Add to that black void of no inputs or outputs and that is a horrible existence. Your "it's not that bad" is simply ridiculous.

If God exists, you are not totally removed from his presence right now. He sustains the universe (and you) in being by his will whether you know it or not. The point is that know one knows the significance that separation will have on someone's soul. 

Which means that nobody knows, even if your scenario is the case, what the effects would be. they could be quite positive, right?
I simply disagree that contemplation is such a torture. In fact, I have little doubt that I could survive isolation if provided basic necessities. That doens't mean I don't like being around (certain) people. But it does mean it isn't as vital (for me) as many make it out to be.
I see no reason why 'only regret persists'. If anything, I would say that the positive memories would persist longer and become more and more precious over time. And I disagree with your claim that such an existence would be meaningless. meaning is something derived at the time.
If the choice is non-existence or existence in the presence of a tyrannical deity, I definitely prefer non-existence.