Another question for Christians

[Killman]

So it's those statements of Jesus that tell you it's true? Because those concepts all existed long before Christianity. If I could show you that they existed in an older religion, would that cause you to switch?

I know these concepts predate Jesus' life on earth, and can be found in many belief systems. No other belief system 'pulls' me like Christ does. I am drawn to the Bible and it speaks truth to me. (I don't like using the word 'Christianity' as it has become a dirty word now representing the opposite of what Jesus teaches).

I hope you know that you just completely lost the debate with that line alone.

[Minimalist]

[IATIA]

I asked Jesus if He was real ...

Whoa there horsey! hock:

How does that work? Are there little voices in your head? Email, messenger, snail mail? The old guy down at the mall? How do you 'talk' to jesus?

[DeistPaladin]

See DP ... he still didn't remotely answer the question in your OP. My point is made. It is absolutely pointless talking to him

As a deist, I have faith in the power of reason.

Christian apologists have a way of testing my faith, but never in the way they intend. I sometimes come away from exchanges with them thinking, "maybe the atheists are right and we humans were lucky to get this far."

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Here's a question I'd like to put to deists- if you believe in an 'intelligence' or 'creator', do you ever 'ask' It, if It is bothered about what it creates? Do you ever ask: 'God/Creator, what/whoever you are, if you are listening, is this it? Do you care?'

No.

Here are some humbling facts to consider:
The universe is some 13.5 billion years old.

Humans have been around for some 100 thousand years, depending on where you count our beginning in our evolution.

The universe includes billions of galaxies.

We are a pale blue dot in our own galaxy.

In terms of both space and time, we are microscopic.

If there is a Creator who set it all in motion, who gave us the spark of reason with which we can build civilization and grow into something bigger, it's a safe bet that we are among many such projects. It is not reasonable to demand personal attention from God any more than a single cell organism in a petri dish colony can ask attention from the great lab coat in the sky.

If God were to be next to me, given the scale I've discussed, I would tend to think God wouldn't even be aware of my presence any more than you are aware of a nearby amoeba.

My philosophy is that God gave us everything we need and the rest is up to us. Don't wait for miracles. Make your own.

[Minimalist]

My philosophy is that God gave us everything we need and the rest is up to us. Don't wait for miracles. Make your own.

We can do all that with no 'god' whatsoever.

[Cinjin]

Here's a question I'd like to put to deists- if you believe in an 'intelligence' or 'creator', do you ever 'ask' It, if It is bothered about what it creates? Do you ever ask: 'God/Creator, what/whoever you are, if you are listening, is this it? Do you care?'

Never.

I certainly can't speak for all deists universally, because I'm sure there's got to be some out there who choose to believe that God loves the human race, but the few deists I do know all share the same sentiment: We don't assign characteristics and a personality to God.

I have found that this is often the hardest thing for christians (and even some atheists) to accept, mostly because religion has engrained in all humans that a god has to be worshiped and that any god MUST love, protect and punish mankind. DP's reply sums it up nicely, and I would only add that this "personal relationship with god" that christians are always going on about is merely an affirmation of your own personal need to feel safe and protected upon your own demise.

I was a genuine christian for 15 horrible confusing years. It is not real. You do not have a personal relationship with god or his alleged son. If you did, you wouldn't need a book to find out what he has to say.

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My philosophy is that God gave us everything we need and the rest is up to us. Don't wait for miracles. Make your own.

We can do all that with no 'god' whatsoever.

I believe that was exactly his intention ... and indeed that would be the only true form of "free will."

[CoxRox]

You do that. Bear in mind that thing about hell being cast into a lake of fire. Either it's a pointless exercise, because you've already ceased to exist and can therefore not feel anything, or you have to be kept alive until judgement day (and who knows when that's coming? Oh wait, it might be this Friday...), which means you are being kept alive for the sole purpose of being made to suffer more, which you say would be evil, and would presumably therefore make your God evil. So which is it?

Hell isn't the only thing cast into the Lake of fire- 'death' is too. Can you cast a 'state' into a fire? The bible contains much imagery that is NOT meant to be taken literally. If we take the gnashing teeth example. Do 'souls' have teeth? Won't the constant gnashing wear them down after a few months, never mind eternity? Do flesh eating worms exist that can devour 'soul'. I'll just give two examples for the benefit of anyone who might think that all that is literal (the worms and gnashing of teeth and fire references DO apply to decomposing bodies here on earth. Once the fire and/or worms have done their job, the dead are perished : they are 'no more'):

Jude 7: 'In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire'.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

Jeremiah 17:27: ''But if you do not obey me to keep the Sabbath day holy by not carrying any load as you come through the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses.’

Did Jerusalem continue to burn after its destruction by the Babylonians in 587 BC?

The bible tells of a future resurrection of all humans (they are presently 'asleep' ie out of existence). Those who are not granted eternal life are judged and then destroyed (symbolised by being thrown into the Lake of fire). This 'second death' seems to denote a permanent state ie they go out of existence forever.

Your language tells me everything I need to know about you. You're 'drawn to' Christ. WHY? It 'shouts truth' at you. HOW? How has God answered the prayer? We deal in proof around here, CR, not in shitty little stories about trees or the sun shining through the window onto your Bible, or moments of awe, or feelings of euphoria, or stupid shit like that.

You wanted to believe in Jesus, so you made it real in your own head and believed. It's as simple as that. That is not God answering a prayer, it's you suiting your own wishful thinking, particularly in light of the passing of a loved one. If any further proof were required that it's nothing more than that, you accept a literal heaven and reject a literal hell. 'Oh I think I'll just believe the nice bits of my religion, those nasty bits aren't for me'. Religion is man made, and yours as much as anyone's.

I haven't decided to follow Christ because of a warm feeling or because I want to see my dad again, although both those things are true. I have considered the claims of Christ for over 30 years now. I would cite Josephus and Tacitus as corroborative historical 'evidence' for the existence of a man called Jesus the Christ. The gospel accounts contain references to figures like Herod and Pontius Pilate who we know existed.

Then we have the Jewish writings in the Tanach, that foretold the Messiah hundreds of years before His birth.
I cannot satisfy your measuring of proof and application of logic etc, and explain why I have faith that the Bible is telling the truth. It's a combination of mind and spirit.

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Here's a question I'd like to put to deists- if you believe in an 'intelligence' or 'creator', do you ever 'ask' It, if It is bothered about what it creates? Do you ever ask: 'God/Creator, what/whoever you are, if you are listening, is this it? Do you care?'

Never.

I certainly can't speak for all deists universally, because I'm sure there's got to be some out there who choose to believe that God loves the human race, but the few deists I do know all share the same sentiment: We don't assign characteristics and a personality to God.

..............I was a genuine christian for 15 horrible confusing years. It is not real. You do not have a personal relationship with god or his alleged son. If you did, you wouldn't need a book to find out what he has to say.

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You say 'never' but if you were a Christian for 15 years, wouldn't you have 'asked' God during that time?

[Cinjin]

Here's a question I'd like to put to deists- if you believe in an 'intelligence' or 'creator', do you ever 'ask' It, if It is bothered about what it creates? Do you ever ask: 'God/Creator, what/whoever you are, if you are listening, is this it? Do you care?'

Never.

I certainly can't speak for all deists universally, because I'm sure there's got to be some out there who choose to believe that God loves the human race, but the few deists I do know all share the same sentiment: We don't assign characteristics and a personality to God.

..............I was a genuine christian for 15 horrible confusing years. It is not real. You do not have a personal relationship with god or his alleged son. If you did, you wouldn't need a book to find out what he has to say.

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You say 'never' but if you were a Christian for 15 years, wouldn't you have 'asked' God during that time?

You asked the question of deists - not of christians. In the entirety of my life as a deist, I have never asked God a single question. I think talking to myself is pointless. (and actually even as a christian, I found it to be very weird and one sided)

[DeistPaladin]

You say 'never' but if you were a Christian for 15 years, wouldn't you have 'asked' God during that time?

Those converting from Christianity to deism will find Nature's God a cold substitute for the warm, fuzzy Jesus. I've said before that Nature's God is a hard ass. It aint gonna carry you on a beach.

Thing is, neither will Jesus. The difference is Nature's God never promised to and I've never asked.

[CoxRox]

You asked the question of deists - not of christians. In the entirety of my life as a deist, I have never asked God a single question. I think talking to myself is pointless. (and actually even as a christian, I found it to be very weird and one sided)

Thanks for clarifying that. I suppose I was implying that during your 'transition' from Christian to deist, you 'asked' if Jesus was real.