Another question for Christians

[Cinjin]

Christ lowered Himself to the status of a man, Christ said that He came not to be served but to serve. See any similarity between this statement and my above statement.
To hold a grudge against someone a person believes he/she is superior to the offender, this is a natural thing with humans, also the offender feels superior to the one offended, that's the result of an action that offends.To forgive should not necessarily mean the offender ask for forgiveness, true forgiveness is given not asked for, for that to happen one will have to humble him/herself and leave the feeling of superiority behind. Christ dying on the cross was not a ritual, He humbly bleed to death for us, He gave us forgiveness by humility.

See DP ... he still didn't remotely answer the question in your OP. My point is made. It is absolutely pointless talking to him.

---

I've had no 'road to Damascus' experience.

Of course you haven't. That story is a fabrication. Also, did you ever wonder why you aren't worthy of such a revelation? Seems unfair does it not?

I have a yearning to know God, my Creator, and try as I might to ignore it, or give it a back seat, it comes to the fore. It's like an irresistable 'drawing'.

I understand this better than anyone ... it still doesn't mean that I choose to believe silly stories that were CLEARLY contrived of men.

When I read about the person and life of Yeshua (Jesus in Aramaic), it cries out 'truth' to me.

Your next two sentences are the ONLY reason that it "cries out truth" ...

A few years ago, I 'asked' Jesus - if He was real (I explained that I wasn't sure if He existed), that He would save me and my family and bring us into His Kingdom. My dad died in April, and I have a hope of being reunited with my dad (My dad believed in Jesus).

You see ... you like many millions of others have based your entire belief structure on fear. The fear of death, the fear of hell, the fear of never seeing your father or your family again. You are simply - afraid. That's a shitty reason to find faith and it will not hold up throughout the years ... especially if you continue to seek knowledge from sources outside of the brainwashing church of jesus.

So, I have a hope that whispers: eternity with my Creator Jesus and my family. That hope has got much stronger lately. Also, I've been reading some articles on ancient Hebrew culture and language, and things are more in 'colour' now, whereas before they were more grey.

Funny how your mind is so locked up by your fathers beliefs that you assume that your salvation from death can only be found in researching the teachings of christianity. As if Buddhism or Hinduism aren't valid alternatives simply because you weren't born in those respective countries. You are deceiving yourself. If you truly want to find what you are looking for, you have to consider all options. Christianity is just one ridiculous religion, and I can tell you for sure, if you start looking outside of christianity you may find the peace you are looking for.
What you have now is based on fear and mark my words ... it will not last. Do you want a fire escape policy or do you want to have some degree of real peace? Do you LOVE jesus or is he just a way to hedge your bets?

You wanna research - don't lie to yourself. Research it all, not just the ramblings of Jewish goat herders circa 300 AD.

[Minimalist]

Can you explain to me how that works?

I'm putting $5 on "no."

[CoxRox]

So, nothing then. Fine.

Just to be clear, you asked Jesus if he was real and if he would save you, and then your Dad died....and this STRENGTHENED your conviction? Can you explain to me how that works?

I asked Jesus if He was real, way before my dad got ill and then died. I started 'looking' for God when I was about 12. (Cinjin- I've studied other religions, not just Christianity).

When my dad died, I lost my faith and felt empty in side. So, I wasn't clinging to Christianity, in the hope that I would see my dad again. Since April, when he died, I'd hardly spoken to God as I was so hurt. I'd not lost a close relative up to this point, or even seen a dead person, so it was a real shock to my system, to witness dying. (I was with my dad when he passed away- a truly horrific experience).
As the pain of this bereavement has subsided, I've been able to think less emotionally again: we're all going to die and so is this all there is?

Aleialoura - I whole heartedly do not believe that the Bible teaches eternal conscious torment. The Bible teaches that we die and go to sheol (hell) which is the grave. Jesus came to save us from death (no longer existing), not from a torture chamber that lasts for eternity. For those who study the bible and believe it teaches a God who keeps people alive for the sole purpose of inflicting pain on them, or to keep them in pain, then I would be happy to pm them, and show how 'hell' as taught in most churches, is VERY wrong and is an evil teaching.
About two months before my dad died and was still at his home, I was staying with him all the time, so I slept on a camp bed next to him. One night, I could hear him groaning in pain. It was horrible to have to sit through that suffering for the half hour or so that it lasted. It struck me clearly, how evil the idea of eternal conscious torment is. God does not bring humans into existence to then keep them in pain for eternity. Pain is temporary. Death is eternal, unless of course Jesus' claim that He is the resurrection and the life is true.

I have chosen to trust Jesus' claims. I have gained hope that there is a plan and a purpose to life, and that death isn't the end (or doesn't have to be the end). Love is my motivation, not so much fear (we all fear death surely). I want to love and be loved (forever). I want love to overcome evil. I don't need archaeology, or a visitation from God to tell me that the words Jesus speaks are true: 'love your enemies', 'do to others as you would have done to yourself', 'forgive those that sin against you' etc etc.

Here's a question I'd like to put to deists- if you believe in an 'intelligence' or 'creator', do you ever 'ask' It, if It is bothered about what it creates? Do you ever ask: 'God/Creator, what/whoever you are, if you are listening, is this it? Do you care?'

[salty]

Hypatia, for one! Read my signature! Then we have the spanish inquisition, the holocaust, all the witch burnings etc..

http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/essays/...ianity.htm

They weren't sacrificed for anyone's sins, but they were sacrificed in accordance with the bible:

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Sacrifices are for sin, punishment is for the ones who do not repent, you are trying to confuse the two just so you can make a point and you have failed. I nor any other christian can help what people in the past have done, just because they got it wrong does not mean that the good christians of today should be blamed. Stalin was an atheist do you want me and other christians to blame you and other atheist for what he did, I wouldn't think so. Stalin was not a sane man, his hate for all the people who could possibly get in his way made him that way and many so called christians have suffered the same thing, enough said.

Right on

[ElDinero]

So it's those statements of Jesus that tell you it's true? Because those concepts all existed long before Christianity. If I could show you that they existed in an older religion, would that cause you to switch?

Again; gaining 'hope' is not the same as gaining 'proof'. Do you care whether the things you believe are true, or do you not? Your statement that you don't need archaeology to know it's true tells me that you don't.

Now on this hell issue. Your good buddy Jesus speaks of an eternal fire. He tells you that hell is the most terrible thing that can happen to you. It's all there in Matthew, and don't you try and tell me that it simply means the grave and not existing any more. If you ceased to exist, you wouldn't know about it - so how would this be terrible? I can see why being in heaven with God would be better, but since you'd never get to make the comparison if you simply ceased to exist, it's kind of irrelevant. Revelation tells you that hell is to be cast into a lake of fire on judgement day. If you had just gone into the grave and ceased to exist, and therefore lost all ability to feel pain, why would this matter? This notion that hell is simply going into the ground is nonsense. It means what it says. It's disingenuous of you to claim otherwise. I'm glad you've come to the understanding that the notion of eternal torture is, which means you're one step away from understanding how evil the Bible really is. Revelation explicitly speaks of 'torment for ever and ever'. How can you claim that it means something so benign, when all evidence is to the contrary?

We know you have chosen to trust Jesus' claims. The question is WHY have you done this? What reason do you have? Again, it comes back to whether you care if things you believe are true or not. Also, I'm interested to know, since you said eternal torture would be an evil concept; if it could be shown that the Bible meant to torture sinners for eternity, would you agree that it is evil, or have you created an unfalsifiable position in your mind?

[Erinome]

Aleialoura - I whole heartedly do not believe that the Bible teaches eternal conscious torment. The Bible teaches that we die and go to sheol (hell) which is the grave. Jesus came to save us from death (no longer existing), not from a torture chamber that lasts for eternity. For those who study the bible and believe it teaches a God who keeps people alive for the sole purpose of inflicting pain on them, or to keep them in pain, then I would be happy to pm them, and show how 'hell' as taught in most churches, is VERY wrong and is an evil teaching.

I would rather just go to my grave than spend an eternity in a boring heaven with an illogical, egotistical fuck stick. It sounds too much like an eternity locked in a room with my stepfather. I'll pass on it and just cease to exist, thanks.

If hell was real, I would rather go there and burn with my brothers too.

[CoxRox]

So it's those statements of Jesus that tell you it's true? Because those concepts all existed long before Christianity. If I could show you that they existed in an older religion, would that cause you to switch?

I know these concepts predate Jesus' life on earth, and can be found in many belief systems. No other belief system 'pulls' me like Christ does. I am drawn to the Bible and it speaks truth to me. (I don't like using the word 'Christianity' as it has become a dirty word now representing the opposite of what Jesus teaches).

Again; gaining 'hope' is not the same as gaining 'proof'. Do you care whether the things you believe are true, or do you not? Your statement that you don't need archaeology to know it's true tells me that you don't.

Yes, I care about truth. I mentioned archaeology in reference to those statements of truth. What I meant was, that I can decide what is truth to me, without the need of archaeology, although, archaeology, history, science etc, do play an important part in strenghening my faith, weak as it is.

Now on this hell issue. Your good buddy Jesus speaks of an eternal fire. He tells you that hell is the most terrible thing that can happen to you. It's all there in Matthew, and don't you try and tell me that it simply means the grave and not existing any more. If you ceased to exist, you wouldn't know about it - so how would this be terrible? I can see why being in heaven with God would be better, but since you'd never get to make the comparison if you simply ceased to exist, it's kind of irrelevant. Revelation tells you that hell is to be cast into a lake of fire on judgement day. If you had just gone into the grave and ceased to exist, and therefore lost all ability to feel pain, why would this matter? This notion that hell is simply going into the ground is nonsense. It means what it says. It's disingenuous of you to claim otherwise. I'm glad you've come to the understanding that the notion of eternal torture is, which means you're one step away from understanding how evil the Bible really is. Revelation explicitly speaks of 'torment for ever and ever'. How can you claim that it means something so benign, when all evidence is to the contrary?

I will come back to you on this, (got to go in a min). You make some good points, which I will gladly cover. I would just ask you to consider hyperbole and figurative language. When Jesus told people to pluck out their eye if it caused them to sin, do you think HE meant for people to LITERALLY pluck out their eyes, or cut off various body parts? If you do, then you'll take his words on Gehenna (the local rubbish dump that had literal fire and worms that ate the bodies that were thrown in it) to be literal. I do not believe Jesus was being literal then, or that he meant literal worms will eat literal flesh forever. (the words 'forever and ever' actually mean in the Greek 'to an age and an age'- meaning for a set period of time, not for eternity.

We know you have chosen to trust Jesus' claims. The question is WHY have you done this? What reason do you have? Again, it comes back to whether you care if things you believe are true or not. Also, I'm interested to know, since you said eternal torture would be an evil concept; if it could be shown that the Bible meant to torture sinners for eternity, would you agree that it is evil, or have you created an unfalsifiable position in your mind?

When I consider Jesus and His teachings, they shout out truth to me. It makes sense and it gives me a hope that evil will not always triumph, and that love will win. No other belief system or person, can compare to Jesus in my opinion. I've studied and prayed and asked God to show me if HE is real and if Jesus is real, and I believe He has answered that prayer, in that I am irresistably drawn to Christ.

I have studied the doctrine of eternal conscious torment for years. I do not believe a God who says 'love your enemies', and who does not delight in the death of the wicked, would conceive of such an evil thing. I no longer worry whether God is some kind of cosmic torturer who repays finite sins with infinite suffering. Death, is the punishment for sin. Yes, suffering is part of it too, and Jesus speaks of a real suffering that people will experience, but just as literal worms don't exist 'forever', so too will people not be kept alive for the sole purpose of being in pain. I'll come back to you on this.


EDITED TO FIX QUOTE BOXES -DeistPaladin

[ElDinero]

You do that. Bear in mind that thing about hell being cast into a lake of fire. Either it's a pointless exercise, because you've already ceased to exist and can therefore not feel anything, or you have to be kept alive until judgement day (and who knows when that's coming? Oh wait, it might be this Friday...), which means you are being kept alive for the sole purpose of being made to suffer more, which you say would be evil, and would presumably therefore make your God evil. So which is it?

Your language tells me everything I need to know about you. You're 'drawn to' Christ. WHY? It 'shouts truth' at you. HOW? How has God answered the prayer? We deal in proof around here, CR, not in shitty little stories about trees or the sun shining through the window onto your Bible, or moments of awe, or feelings of euphoria, or stupid shit like that.

You wanted to believe in Jesus, so you made it real in your own head and believed. It's as simple as that. That is not God answering a prayer, it's you suiting your own wishful thinking, particularly in light of the passing of a loved one. If any further proof were required that it's nothing more than that, you accept a literal heaven and reject a literal hell. 'Oh I think I'll just believe the nice bits of my religion, those nasty bits aren't for me'. Religion is man made, and yours as much as anyone's.

[KichigaiNeko]

Can some one PLEASE fix CR's quote tags??

[The Grand Nudger]

Another one trying to scrub hell out of the bible. I refuse to have this conversation in full length for a third time.


(searching for the link)