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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 10:48 am
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 10:52 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You used the word "apparently" as though the lines immediately following were more than your own beliefs Black. lol.
And no Werewolf, the argument itself is a problem, and only from one side. Our secular explanation for "why we're here" relies on evidence. There is no solid explanation for "what caused our cause" (or even whether or not this is a meaningful question, as it may not be) from the secular end, hence "we don't know" ™.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 10:51 am
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 10:53 am by black36.)
Werewolf, Well, I'm comfortable with your response. I can't speak for others.
Rhythm, I never used that word.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 11:20 am
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 11:23 am by Phil.)
(March 10, 2012 at 10:46 am)black36 Wrote: If reality was not caused, then it has either always existed (which is not possible because we should then be in a state of heat death already), or it came from nothing (which assumes that nothing is something, which it's not). You don't read much on cosmology and you make that painfully obvious with your heat death already claim.
As to your nothing claim, define nothing and then give me an example. There is always entropy (Joules per Kelvin) and the cosmological constant (vacuum energy) even in de Sitter space. You have a de Sitter space with either a positive vacuum energy (with negative pressure) or negative energy density (positive pressure). Those are respectively de Sitter space and anti de Sitter space.
Do us a favor. Shove your idiotic Christian non scientific bullshit deep up your ass and preferably you should perforate your colon at the same time.
(March 10, 2012 at 10:46 am)Werewolff Wrote: and we don't know how a universe (or multiverse) can just exist. There is no concrete scientific explanation but there are a few scientific hypothesis that are very promising. God is just a way to avoid the question and a way for the theist to feel that humans are special in the universe.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 11:30 am
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 11:32 am by Werewolff.)
Phil, what's being questioned is the idea of a god which has always existed (should there be a god), not the existence of god itself. I have no problems whatsoever with the concept of an uncreated god. I don't believe in god but if there is one, I would strongly assume that it must be uncreated. The creator of a universe cannot be itself a creation, therefore, if, and only if, there is a god, it must be uncreated. I have yet to meet a theist who believes in a created god. A created god, by definition, cannot even be possible.
As for the universe, I can only see 2 possibilities. Either there's an infinite regress or there's an ultimate cause of the universe. In my view the former I find logically unacceptable, and the latter, if it's the case, would make theists of us all. And that's why I struggle with the whole question.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 11:39 am
(March 10, 2012 at 11:30 am)Werewolff Wrote: As for the universe, I can only see 2 possibilities. Either there's an infinite regress or there's an ultimate cause of the universe.
I bolded the problem. The universe doesn't give a flip what any of us care. When you preface your statement with "I can only see" it becomes an argument from personal incredulity which is a fallacy as you know. A third possibility is an eternally existing de Sitter space that baby universe sprung from (and possibly many which would lead to a multiverse). If you want, you can read this paper by Sean Carroll and Jennifer Chen.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 11:43 am
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 11:44 am by Werewolff.)
I don't have time to read the whole thing. Can you summarise? With a multiverse the problem is still there. What caused it?
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 11:51 am
(March 10, 2012 at 11:43 am)Werewolff Wrote: I don't have time to read the whole thing. Can you summarise? Pretty much a high entropy de Sitter space sitting in a false vacuum (this is why you have to read the paper) gave rise to "bubbles" that were in a true vacuum. Those "bubbles" generally dissipated quickly but at least one found itself stable enough to exist and that was the beginning of the universe {in a low entropy condition) prior to the inflationary period. Now that you are hopelessly confused, make time and read the paper otherwise I can't be bothered to even consider your claims as being serious.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 11:59 am
(This post was last modified: March 10, 2012 at 12:03 pm by Welsh cake.)
(March 7, 2012 at 7:12 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: ...first cause argument proves a Personal Creator... Don't flatter yourself. While you've presented some fine examples of special pleading and circular arguments with regards to God as the "uncaused first cause", I remain unconvinced. You've in no way presented any valid argument that persuades me there is any truth in your proposition.
All your posts do is simply beg the question "Why do you believe there's a god?" and nothing more... (arguments from ignorance not withstanding)
Since you cannot formulate a convincing enough argument, your only other option is to present us sufficient evidence.
Where's your proof? I'm waiting.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 11:59 am
Werewolf, you and I think a lot alike.
Phil, with all due respect, you violate your own point here: "The universe doesn't give a flip what any of us care." It "seems like a argument from personal incredulity" to me.
Also, I would love to see how you would explain "de Sitter space" in you own words. Frankly, if one can't explain something which a child could apprehend, then does one really understand the rhetoric one spews? AND, to throw this out: "You don't read much on cosmology and you make that painfully obvious with your heat death already claim." without unpacking it is a bit arrogant, no?
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RE: The idea of God always existing
March 10, 2012 at 12:04 pm
(March 10, 2012 at 11:59 am)black36 Wrote: Werewolf, you and I think a lot alike.
Phil, with all due respect, you violate your own point here: "The universe doesn't give a flip what any of us care." It "seems like a argument from personal incredulity" to me.
Also, I would love to see how you would explain "de Sitter space" in you own words. Frankly, if one can't explain something which a child could apprehend, then does one really understand the rhetoric one spews? AND, to throw this out: "You don't read much on cosmology and you make that painfully obvious with your heat death already claim." without unpacking it is a bit arrogant, no?
Are you fucking retarded or is your stupidity due to your parents being brother and sister? You apparently saw the word de Sitter space but didn't see the description I gave????? Fuck you.
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