Prayer?

[The Grand Nudger]

Pain and suffering have nothing to do with sin. The only pain and suffering caused by sin is the pain and suffering that the fantasy of sin itself inflicts upon those unfortunate enough to have been fed that line.

[Skepsis]

The plan was to provide Choice. Or to provide an oppertunity to choose. the plan wasn't to force everyone to Choose Heaven.

You're not seeing my point. A God like yours that created the universe knowing all there was to ever know about his creation necessarily created a deterministic universe. In such a universe, choice is illusory and only seems real to the chooser. We cannot choose heaven nor hell, and why you contest this while confirming that we have no choice in all our other endeavors goes right over my head. You have to provide some sort of evidence in order to make this claim, and it has to satisfy the dilemma of a precognizant creator God's inability to create a world with choice.

This judgement is always based on incomplete information.

You think? I'd say that most times justice is administered it is based on viable evidence. Unless you are suggesting that all judicial systems in the world are unjust and flawed...?

God's Judgement is complete and complies with a absolute righteous standard. In other words God's judgement may not be fair to everyone.

So it's command theory: justice version. I have always been disgusted by the notion that a God can dictate the most morally corrupt action as righteous and application to justice is no better.

What if one chooses to be eternally seperated from God? Is God to drag them kicking and screaming into Heaven?

If the alternative is to burn in hellfire?

Belief in god is not the deciding factor of Heaven or Hell.

I find this rather insulting then. You are here to save the atheists from hell or "Spiritual Torment", yet belief isn't the deciding factor. Are you insinuating that atheists are intrinsically immoral? Or amoral?

For we are told even the Demons believe." And yet they are not welcome into Heaven. Love (as God outlines it) is what makes us acceptiable for God to accept our belief.

So belief is necessary anyway?
What you should have wrote is
"belief isn't the deciding factor...*"
*= Lol it really is Jk.

Choice only requires one alternitive to the situation you are facing.

And in your God's plan there isn't an alternative.

you have a choice you do not have an abundance of choice.

Or any at all.

Again "the Master plan" was to give you the oppertunity to Choose, not that you make a specific choice.

I understand that. I understood since the first time you said it. I get it already.
Do you understand my objection?
That a "master" plan that determines all universal attributes pre-creation is a deterministic one, and thus disallows choice in any form?
Or that it is special pleading when you don't evidence why people are exempt from determinism when it comes to choice between heaven and hell?
How about your God's injustice of not evidencing himself in any significant way and then making the criterion to avoid eternal hell-fire belief?
Ring a bell?

define 'the plan' as you understand it.

Unless it has changed since Adam and Eve, then the plan remains that we are left no alternative than to sin. Then, he planned odd, ritualistic vicarious redemption through a blood sacrifice of his own son that wasn't really a sacrifice because he went to heaven in the end anyway, though for some reason he didn't plan the actions of every human being.
But by the nature of God he must have planned how every single event that would ever occur would play out and what our choices would be given the universe he created, seeing as how he knew the consequence for the creation of any given universe before he created it. Therefore, he also had to know, before he created anything, what everyone would do every second of their lives given and choice they might be given.
I can hardly think of anything more analogous to programming than that scenario.

Because No other Choices are given! There are no other options.

Answer me this, according to your mythology: Am I free to choose my breakfast? You said earlier that one of the only choices we have is to sin or not to sin, and I took that to mean that you believed there to be little choice at all, which is why I accused you of special pleading.

So you are making a desision that will echo through out eternity for the half hearted effort you put into makeing a desision when you were 13. (Not raging here I just want you to take an honest look.) did you have a girlfriend when you were 13? Do you have one now? If we made all of our life's desisions based on the half hearted efforts we made when we were 13 year old then we'd all die from infections we got from over Masterbation.

Like I said, I looked at it as something I would be looking for long. The fact that my prayers weren't answered at any age would have led me to question my skepticism that I now lead my life based on. Skepticism killed religion for me, not unanswered prayer. Still, why was my attempt half assed, according to you? I did all I felt I could for quite a while, and if God really knew me he knows what I needed to justify me in my faith. Why didn't he give me that? Just a "mystery of God"?

If your social life has improved in the last 5 years, Then how is it a good idea to base not only your whole life, but your eternal one as well, on the efforts you put fourth to know God when you were 13?

I don't base my entire life on unanswered prayers. To atheists, God is nothing to sweat over, so when you say "base your eternal life" on an unconscious decision I made, it feels oddly surreal. When I believed, the biggest obstacle I had to overcome was fear. Fear of being disowned, fear of hell, fear of losing myself to sin. I don't fear those anymore, thanks to a healthy skepticism and the support of my parents. If I didn't have those, I might not have gotten through deconversion as easily. In the end, I am not "basing my life" on anything. I simply gave up my childish delusion for a healthier reality-based, truth seeking skepticism.

how could you possiably know what happened?
You haven't lived long enough yet.

Are you calling me naive or unwise due to my age? That's laughable, especially coming from someone who genuinely feels atheists are in danger of being sent to hell by a loving God.

The only think you proved is that God has not conceeded to the time line you have set before Him.

My timeline is insurmountably small compared to his. I might live to be 80, if I am lucky. he'll live forever, and exists everywhere at all times. Nothing is stopping him from saving me. Nothing. Yet, he sat at the sidelines and watched as I threw my life to sin (according to your fairy tale).

I will be 37 in a few days and I am just now starting to see How God answered prayers I made when I was 18.

The more time you spend indoctrinating and deluding yourself, the more confirmation bias you have in hindsight? Really?
We have a psychological breakthrough here, people!

So to Say God did not answer a prayer in your time frame... Know that He seldom does.

Or never does, because he is a myth that you in your 38 years in this world can't discount while I in my mere 18 years have seen through...

how do you know this is not an answer to your prayer in of itself?
You wanted 'proof' of God what if proof could only be provided if first you had to absolve questions you could not ask because of some misunderstood 'respect' you gave the church that was not needed? What if your journey into Atheism was the only way you could resolve these issues, and accept the proof God would provide?

I have always yielded to my skepticism, asking the questions I felt needed to be answered regardless of discipline. In my younger years (lol) I was more rebellious and would ask controversial questions all the time.
Still, what if you were right? Why didn't god give me the answers so I could follow your path or one like it?

God yeild results, not the journeys we want to take.

If God yields results in this way, then so do I. Pray to me, because as long as I am revered enough I can get away with killing your wife because I was "teaching you to cope with depression".
No, fuck that. What happens in your life is led by you, and no invisible sky daddy will take credit for actions I take while avoiding blame for the malnourished and distraught of the world.

Have you considered it was not correct?

Yes, but I only said that for effect. I though you would whole-heartedly agree with me that following God is the "correct" path.
Irony, how I love you.

You were wanting God to confirm a faith based in magic and wonder. God defines and outlines Faith in Hebrews 11. What you were doing was not 'on path faith.'

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for."

"confidence in what we hope for" = "wishful thinking"
"assurance about what we do not see" = "I'll believe regardless of whether or not I can prove this shit"
I'd say I was spot-on with my faith at that point in time.

Luke 11 perscribes a plan/path will give you all the evidence you need.

Does it now? At this point, even if I followed said plan and it failed, you would tell me that it didn't fail and I simply don't understand why it succeeded.

In that you did not carry yourself nor had any 'scars' of one who had spent a great deal of time helping people like the boy pictured. Yet you were ready and willing to judge God for something you yourself have never done.

As I should be!!
I don't have the power to end world hunger. I don't have the power to solve violence issues amongst warring clans or religious factions. I don't have the power to make any significant contribution to the world that would change the way people think of violence and physical needs.
Guess who does? Guess who not only has the power, but has such an abundance of power that changing the world in this way would be literally nothing to him?
God.
Yet he sits on his ass doing nothing.
This is why I don't get blamed for failed public policy and the president does: Because I don't have the power to make that change while the pres does.

This is critical, because we are told that we will be judged according to how we judge others. Meaning if you are to judge God for not helping then you yourself better have that base covered.

No, for reasons I have already explained. God is nothing more that a disgusting monster for allowing the pain that resounds around the world today, and even if I caused more pain than I ease (I don't) I would still be valid in calling him a monster for his unwillingness to act on the needs of the world.

Actually no I couldn't. (If I am to remain faithful to what i have been given) This is my all in all, I will not brag about what I do, just know that I can not do any more, and I take what little free time I do have and give the lion's share over to you people and a few others in places like this.

I enjoy the sentiment, but you would be better served to spend you time doing anything else. You are fun to speak with, for sure, but if your goal is the betterment of mankind your time can be better spent. That's all I'll say on that.

It's not what you do compared to another that makes your deeds count for the glory of God, it is the condition of one's heart when one is performing that deed.

I could care less what God thinks of the center of my cardiovascular system.

Are you saying that people who come here are less important in God's eyes than those who physically suffer?

I don't care what God thinks about us. He doesn't exist. I do know that you have better evidence for the suffering and dying of this world than for your God, which makes you less justified in being here than being in a place where people actually have needs.

Who (in the light of eternity) is better off? The one who suffers for 70 years physically, and sits at the right hand of Christ for his suffering brought him Spiritual prosperity. Or the one who is indulged physically, and is lost to eternity?

70 years? What delusion are you suffering through? The needy live for ten years, 4 years, sometimes to their older 20's. Those are the people I am talking about.

From God's persepective the one who starves spiritually and is indulged physically suffers the greatest.

I could care less what your unevidenced imaginary friend has to say on the matter. If he exists I owe no allegiance to him, for he is an asshole. Luckily for me, the chance that he exists is negligible because the lack of evidence is a resounding feature of modern apologetics.

I am spiritually starved from thor zeus and allah, and yet i do not sit around with like minded suffers and plot ways to increase my suffering..

I can't say this for everyone, but I don't come here to wallow in my own non-belief. I come here to spend time with like-minded individuals, to envelop myself in a community that I would otherwise be devoid of. I live in the Bible belt. Do you think I would be able to sit down with others who ditched their mysticism anywhere around here? It is important for people to spend time with others who share their sentiments, and this site allows people an outlet to do just that.

Yet here is a web site One of many who's titled purpose is to allow a place for people who supposedly do not believe in God an oppertunity to catagorize all the ways they do not believe.. Why is this needed if one truly does not believe?

Where is the sub-forum where we categorize all the ways we don't believe in God? Sorry, try again. The closest you'll get is a thread where atheists make fun of religiosity for its numerous flaws and atrocities.

I do not believe in a great number of things. None of which warrant 15 mins of my time over the entire course of my life time.

If everyone in the world felt that they ought to live by the great book of Unicornism and it was causing problems in society and on the personal level, would you let it go?
Oh, and I thought I'd share how laughable it is that you would spend 0 time on thing you don't believe but a whole life on a fairy tale. Just hysterical.

Yet there are people here who have spent thousands of post and hundreds of hours trying to convince themselves that they do not believe.

Get to the chopper! Fire your lasers@@! Our base is belong to them!
You have discovered our conspiracy to convince ourselves that there is no God!
What shall we do!?

If you do not believe then remain silent. your silence speaks volumes, while your lengthy objections only say one thing....

Bullshit. Calling religion a pile of crap is a uniquely stimulating practice due to the fact that there are those who actually believe that shit. The fact that it does more harm than good everywhere in the world is just another factor, while the casuals through the forums reading posts are another. People who don't really know whether or not they believe will reach out for evidence and maybe a community. What could be better than offering them a place where there are nearly 90% atheists and only about 2% religious adherents? What better place to discuss the troubles religion is causing at the moment?

I have never claimed that i can prove the existance of God. nochristian can to another person. But God can and every Christ can point you in the direction to find God for yourself, if you truly want said proof.

Your proof is simple self-delusion. You'll never gain a convert from any knowledge-thirsty individual, from here or anywhere.
Proof is what we need, not constant self-indoctrination.

without doubt. But few can accuratly repersent the bible and still navigate these waters semi responsiably.

Your interpretation, you mean? Nobody can come on this site and preach your interpretation? You're right. Nobody but you. Others would clutter the waters and make real truth difficult to obtain. Their tenuous interpretation would make the message watery and weak, huh?
lol

many people in the christian community considerpeople who fancy themselves to be anti God or 'Atheist' to be beyond the need for help.

Many people in the skeptical community see Christians to be beyond the grasp of rational discussion of their holy book and reasoning skills. Yet here I am. Do I get to be a saint too?
*BTW we're not "anti-God".

If I had not come from where I came from I would probably think the same.However, Someone took the time to Help me and answered my irreverant questions, and it changed my life.

Did they logically prove that God exists in some fashion, or did they just tutor you on the most efficient ways to delude yourself into believing in God?

I can not proove anything, but that is the wonderful thing. I don't have to. For God promsies 'Proof' for all who Ask, Seek, and Knock as outlined in Luke 11.

Proof wasn't offered to me, and won't ever be. If I ask god for proof and he doesn't answer me, knowing full well that I would end up and atheist who forfeits all other attempts to contact him, why didn't he help me at 14 when I needed it the most?
Just a thought, because I know why he didn't answer me.

NO! How many time must we do this???? One last time! God's Plan provides us an oppertunity to choose where we wish to spend eternity. In order to do this we must be set in a place away from the known glory of God.
If you have a question ask it now do not proceed till you understand this completely.

Remember when I told you I understood every single time You said this before? Refer to that. I won't explain again why I feel it is impossible for God to create a world with free will.

I will agree it is not the choice you want and you feel that is not fair. How is that can we agree there?

Alright, again. The phrase "planned choice" is contradictory for God.

then I would point out that this 'belief' was not biblically based.

implied from the text means that it uses the text as a source of reference.

Then I would point back to the direct command of Christ when he said: "When you pray, Pray like this..." Again nothing imlied we have a direct command. religious or traditional interpertations do not supperceed direct commands.

Since when has a direct command stopped cherry-pickers from cherry-picking?

It only matters if you really what to have an oppertunity to speak to God and have Him speak to you back. Otherwise it doesn't.

I think I missed this part. I can get him to answer me? Tell me again, in summary, how to do this?

Do you know what 'dogma' is? it is the thought that you are right. so yes. no matter what you believe you will dogmatically justify your beliefs with or without the bible.

Not everyone is dogmatic with their beliefs. Everyone who read this far will understand except you.

I simply say if your trying to worship the God of the bible then it is with the bible one must do it. If you want to pray then it will have to be how Christ shows us, and not by some 'understanding' you thought you had with God in sunday school.

Your cherry-picked variant is no better than anyone elses, unless, as you claim, I can actually get an answer from your God, in which case you ought to submit the method to be scientifically verified as this would surely save many lost souls.

Sorry for how long this is. I answered both replies in one, so it should be huuuge. Felt like I was writing the into to a novel.

[Thor]

[quote='Thor' pid='322864' dateline='1344886113']

Hmmmm....

Then, by what you say here, there can be no free will in heaven.

Noope.

That why "Heaven" is not for everyone. Hence the Choice.

So which is it? Utopia and free will can't coexist or they can? Because you're making no sense here.

[The Grand Nudger]

You check that shit at the door Thor, lol.

[Drich]

I want you to know I will not be answering any question dealing with your personal feelings or beliefs. I will however address biblically based questions. so If I missed something you want to discuss, then you will have to rephrase.

[quote='Skepsis' pid='323098' dateline='1344950044']
[quote]You're not seeing my point.[/quote]actually I do. You are wanting to force this topic to fit a known philosphical arguement, that pits the popular understanding of free will against a all knowing creator.
The problem is you are having to introduce a red herring to make this arguement fit what I have said in this thread. Which I will address in your 'explaination' of God's plan.

[quote]You think? I'd say that most times justice is administered it is based on viable evidence. Unless you are suggesting that all judicial systems in the world are unjust and flawed...?[/quote]
Which is why God's Righteous Judgements are not considered to be 'justic' For He does not levy a Judgement on incomplete information. therefore a generally accepted 'fairness' is not required.

[quote]If the alternative is to burn in hellfire?[/quote]Did you just not say God's Judgements sickened you? So that would mean not all would find Heaven to their liking. What if you wnet to Heaven and found you had to serve as a Slave for eternity? would you rather be a Slave to God or be seperated from Him?

[quote]I find this rather insulting then. You are here to save the atheists from hell or "Spiritual Torment", yet belief isn't the deciding factor. Are you insinuating that atheists are intrinsically immoral? Or amoral?[/quote]Another Red Herring. I said "Belief' was not the deciding factor." I did not say christian morality was.
Eitherway know both Christian and Atheist morality fall far short of earning on a spot in Heaven via their deeds. for no matter what version of 'morality' you adopt it is a personal version of the righteousness we have been called to with the sin we are willing to incoperate (live with) set into that standard. which makes our 'morality' (which ever version) Meaningless before God.

[quote]So belief is necessary anyway?[/quote]Belief is the catalist for this whole process.

[quote]And in your God's plan there isn't an alternative.[/quote]Heaven or Hell.


[quote]Unless it has changed since Adam and Eve, then the plan remains that we are left no alternative than to sin. Then, he planned odd, ritualistic vicarious redemption through a blood sacrifice of his own son that wasn't really a sacrifice because he went to heaven in the end anyway, though for some reason he didn't plan the actions of every human being.[/quote]
More or less, and I would like to add we do not know what the full extent of Christ's sacerfice was. Something changed between The Father and The Son, but we do not yet understand the extent of it.

This next bit is the Red Herring I mentioned in the beginning of this post:

[quote]But by the nature of God he must have planned how every single event that would ever occur would play out and what our choices would be given the universe he created, seeing as how he knew the consequence for the creation of any given universe before he created it.[/quote]
what is the nature of God as you understand it? Do you have supporting scripture to back these assertions? If not, how can you have so much intimate knoweledge of a God you say does not exist and then know Him better than one who has spent 20 or so years studying Him from the bible?
-or-
Is this simply how you need God to be, inorder for the rest of your arguement to work?

[quote]Therefore, he also had to know, before he created anything, what everyone would do every second of their lives given and choice they might be given.
I can hardly think of anything more analogous to programming than that scenario.[/quote]This straw man all kinda falls apart when your forced to work with only the stated nature of God, as per the bible.

[quote]Answer me this, according to your mythology: Am I free to choose my breakfast? You said earlier that one of the only choices we have is to sin or not to sin, and I took that to mean that you believed there to be little choice at all, which is why I accused you of special pleading.[/quote]
Ok I see now what you are saying. My arguement says we are only garanteed one choice. not that we are limited to one choice.

[quote]Like I said, I looked at it as something I would be looking for long. The fact that my prayers weren't answered at any age would have led me to question my skepticism that I now lead my life based on. [/quote]Again how do you know your prayers have not been answered? you can only say for certain that your prayers have not been answered the way you thought they should be answered.

[quote]Skepticism killed religion for me, not unanswered prayer.[/quote] Do you truly not see they are linked?

[quote] Still, why was my attempt half assed, according to you?[/quote]You said you did not goto Church, you did not read the bible, yet you felt like you knew God well enough to make wishes, at an age when God is perceived to be a great wizard anyway, and based on what happened here you have changed the rest of your life... Respectfully, in your estimation how is this not a 'half assed' attempt?

In the passage of Luke 11 that i posted it says we are to Ask, Seek and Knock for the Holy Spirit. For He will provide the 'proof' we all seeks (and many other things that will sustain belief as well.) We ask in prayer (you did ask, sort of if you are willing to take a very liberal interpertation of prayer) You did not seek, for we seek in the bible, in Church, and in discussions like this. and you did not knock. Which has one asking and seeking till He gets what He wants. One could potentially spend a life time knocking, but it is usally limited to the hardness of one heart. (willingness to let their sins of choice go)

[quote] I did all I felt I could for quite a while, and if God really knew me he knows what I needed to justify me in my faith. Why didn't he give me that?[/quote]
again How do you KNOW this is not what is happening now? Why do you assume God had to give you want you wanted in the way you were asking? God knows you better than that. I was a youth minister for a while and I know better than to grant a wish to a 13 year old without restrictions or modifications. Especially a wish dealing with the knoweledge or wisdom of God. If you asked God to answer a wish that a wizard would grant, then you at 13 are establishing God as a wizard in your minds eye.

This is a problem because God is not a wizard, so it would be foolish to reinforce an incorrect view of who God is. For what would happen to you and your faith when you found out that God was not the wizard who 'prooved' Himself to you when you were 13?
would you have God lie to you? Or is the God of the universe creator of all things bound bound to change His nature to fit your finite understanding of who He is supposed to be?

Wouldn't it be more wise to bring your understanding up past the comperhension of a 13 year old rather than lie or change the order of the universe to fit the understanding that you specifically had at 13?

again Now what if in order for you to change your understanding of God you had to learn to question and resolve issues that you could not get past, while doing what you would have done if God answered your prayer the way you wanted it answered?

If God was looking to change your understanding of Him by forcing you to seek and ask,(BTW don't look now but this is exactly what you are doing) then endowing you with a good measure of skeptisim would be an answer to your orginal prayer.
The only question now is, what will you do with this answered prayer? Will you seek God? Or will you seek a philosphy that allows you to further seperate yourself from Him?

[quote] Just a "mystery of God"?[/quote]
Only if you do not know Him.

[quote]I don't base my entire life on unanswered prayers.[/quote]Two observations. 1) you haven't lived your life yet, so you do not know what you will do. 2) you do not know God did not answer your prayer.

[quote]Are you calling me naive or unwise due to my age? [/quote]I said exactly what I meant. You have not live long enough to know. you were speaking from a point of absolute knoweledge of how your life will unfold. the only way we can do this is by looking back after we have experienced something. @ 18 you can not say this. Wisdom (outside of being to indentify this process) does not play into the equasion.

[quote]My timeline is insurmountably small compared to his. I might live to be 80, if I am lucky. he'll live forever, and exists everywhere at all times. Nothing is stopping him from saving me.[/quote]He already has, you just have to accept this salvation.

[quote] Nothing. Yet, he sat at the sidelines and watched as I threw my life to sin.[/quote] tells us in Romans 8 we are in sin all of the time (even after we are saved) So to turn you over to the sin you are already commiting is nothing that hasn't already happened. the only difference is how you feel about sin and how you feel about God. Your heart now reflects your actions.

[quote]I have always yielded to my skepticism, asking the questions I felt needed to be answered regardless of discipline. In my younger years (lol) I was more rebellious and would ask controversial questions all the time.[/quote] It's not just about asking questions it about living them and the answers that follow.

[quote]Still, what if you were right? Why didn't god give me the answers so I could follow your path or one like it?[/quote]How do you know you are not living the path I walked for the first 1/2 of my life?
The only difference I see is the order in which you have decided to walk this portion of the path and the amount of time you will spend here.

[quote]"confidence in what we hope for" = "wishful thinking"
"assurance about what we do not see" = "I'll believe regardless of whether or not I can prove this shit"
I'd say I was spot-on with my faith at that point in time.[/quote]
Maybe you should try the easy to read version, it takes alot of the room you used to jump to the wrong conclusion about faith out of the discussion.
11 Faith is what makes real the things we hope for. It is proof of what we cannot see. 2 God was pleased with the people who lived a long time ago because they had faith like this.

[Undeceived]

[quote='Thor' pid='322864' dateline='1344886113']

Hmmmm....

Then, by what you say here, there can be no free will in heaven.

Noope.

That why "Heaven" is not for everyone. Hence the Choice.

So which is it? Utopia and free will can't coexist or they can? Because you're making no sense here.

Our will becomes like God’s once we have chosen Jesus Christ on earth. Theoretically, we’d have the free will to abandon heaven. Satan and his demons used to be angels, and used their free will to leave God’s presence. We’re not likely to because we’ve already faced worse trials on earth. If we would have been driven away, it would have been then. Believers in heaven have already made the choice to fill their hearts with God. God's presence is so powerful that only the holy, pure and righteous can stand in it. Jesus made us pure with His sacrifice and our acceptance of it. He has changed our mind (once we welcomed Him to), not our choices.

[Drich]

Does it now? At this point, even if I followed said plan and it failed, you would tell me that it didn't fail and I simply don't understand why it succeeded.

This is a promise of God, it will not fail. That said one does not have to accept or believe what He has been given, but it will not fail. Not if you hold up to your end of the deal.

As I should be!!
I don't have the power to end world hunger.

Yes you do. one meal at a time. one hour at a time. You simply choose not to.

I don't have the power to solve violence issues amongst warring clans or religious factions.

There are millions starving in this country especially given this economy. What have you done to alieviate their needs or suffering?

So because you can not Magically (like a wizard) cure all the world problems you want nothing to do with them?

I don't have the power to make any significant contribution to the world that would change the way people think of violence and physical needs.
Guess who does?

You do, and the millions like you who do nothing but blame others for their inactivity.

I enjoy the sentiment, but you would be better served to spend you time doing anything else. You are fun to speak with, for sure, but if your goal is the betterment of mankind your time can be better spent. That's all I'll say on that.

thankfully I am not looking to better mankind. I am looking to simply provide biblical answers people like you may have about God.

70 years? What delusion are you suffering through?

Physical Suffering comes in many forms outside the pictures found on the internet. there are many who live to be 70 or 80 and have endured more carried more for longer than someone who's body gives out shortly after they fall to need. Spend some time at a homeless shelter, or soup kitchen, or a rehab/recovery center or a nursing home. Places the would not yield pictures that would imeidately benfit someone looking to force a judgement about God.

The needy live for ten years, 4 years, sometimes to their older 20's. Those are the people I am talking about.

these people see mercy. for there are fates much worse than death.

I could care less what your unevidenced imaginary friend has to say on the matter. If he exists I owe no allegiance to him, for he is an asshole. Luckily for me, the chance that he exists is negligible because the lack of evidence is a resounding feature of modern apologetics.

Again, we all have the ablity to seek proof directly from God. placing the 'burden of proof' on the indivisuals who know of God.

I can't say this for everyone, but I don't come here to wallow in my own non-belief. I come here to spend time with like-minded individuals, to envelop myself in a community that I would otherwise be devoid of.

..Which is different from 'wallowing' how?

I live in the Bible belt. Do you think I would be able to sit down with others who ditched their mysticism anywhere around here? It is important for people to spend time with others who share their sentiments, and this site allows people an outlet to do just that.

agreed

If everyone in the world felt that they ought to live by the great book of Unicornism and it was causing problems in society and on the personal level, would you let it go?

i guess it depended on the soceity. how is it you just assume 'soceity' is always right? (Good thing you did not live in 1930's/40's Germany.)

Bullshit. Calling religion a pile of crap is a uniquely stimulating practice due to the fact that there are those who actually believe that shit. The fact that it does more harm than good everywhere in the world is just another factor, while the casuals through the forums reading posts are another. People who don't really know whether or not they believe will reach out for evidence and maybe a community. What could be better than offering them a place where there are nearly 90% atheists and only about 2% religious adherents? What better place to discuss the troubles religion is causing at the moment?

again how is this not wallowing in what you believe? To me it simply sounds like you do not like being catorgrized so matter of factly, but can not offer any legitment reason to refute this classification.

Your interpretation, you mean? Nobody can come on this site and preach your interpretation? You're right. Nobody but you. Others would clutter the waters and make real truth difficult to obtain. Their tenuous interpretation would make the message watery and weak, huh?

My, 'truth' is as valid as any other christ/bible centered truth. There isn't any specific version we must obtain. (read my thread on Why there are so many denominations) What i was refering to is the number of well meaning brothers who come here are easily offended and move on. Or those who quickly get bann. Or those who get suckered into argueing point of pride or personal philosphy rather than sticking to repersenting the bible or God. The specific brand of Christ centered truth is of little concern to me or God.

*BTW we're not "anti-God".

You do not speak for everyone, some are and have admited as much in their personal tags or sigs.

Did they logically prove that God exists in some fashion, or did they just tutor you on the most efficient ways to delude yourself into believing in God?

Begging the question.

Proof wasn't offered to me, and won't ever be.

The process is outlined in Luke 11, and I know it was offered because I did so in this post and the last.

If I ask god for proof and he doesn't answer me, knowing full well that I would end up and atheist who forfeits all other attempts to contact him, why didn't he help me at 14 when I needed it the most?

Again you have not lived long enough to know what God has offered.

I think I missed this part. I can get him to answer me?

Allow me to correct you. You can not get the answer you have been looking for.

Tell me again, in summary, how to do this?

Ask Seek and Knock for the Holy Spirit (which provides proof) as outlined in Luke11.

Your cherry-picked variant is no better than anyone elses, unless, as you claim, I can actually get an answer from your God, in which case you ought to submit the method to be scientifically verified as this would surely save many lost souls.

It has been submitted, and dismissed because seemingly most are not brave enough or rather too proud to commit/submit to the process, and if by chance one is. then his 'proof' is dismissed because he no longer agrees with those who say God does not exist.

[Minimalist]

12 pages....236 replies and not a single shred of evidence that prayer is anything more than talking to yourself.

You fucking people are amazing.

[Drich]

[quote='Thor' pid='322864' dateline='1344886113']

Hmmmm....

Then, by what you say here, there can be no free will in heaven.

Noope.

That why "Heaven" is not for everyone. Hence the Choice.

So which is it? Utopia and free will can't coexist or they can? Because you're making no sense here.

Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Free will is the ablity to be outside of God's expressed will.

In Heaven there is no sin, Their is only God's will.

[Thor]

[quote='Thor' pid='323113' dateline='1344954079']


So which is it? Utopia and free will can't coexist or they can? Because you're making no sense here.

Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Free will is the ablity to be outside of God's expressed will.

In Heaven there is no sin, Their is only God's will.

So.... there is no free will in heaven. Is that what you're saying?