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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 9:42 am
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2012 at 9:48 am by Drich.)
(August 20, 2012 at 9:13 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: (August 19, 2012 at 11:41 am)Drich Wrote: Yes Jesus HAD to die. Why? Because we are told God established the standard that any and all sin deserves Death. Righteousness demands that someone die for the sins committed against God. Jesus was that death for those who accept the offering made on their behalf.
It is still not clear to me why the death of anything compensates or counteracts any crimes/sins.
Wrongs/sins committed by A against B.
C is killed thus compensating for the sins/wrong committed against B.
How? I don't see the link.
Regards
Grimesy
I think I see the problem. Allow me to amend your equasion, maybe this will help.
A=Sinner
B=God
C=Christ.
All sins are commited against God. Therefore God sets the standard in which attonement/compensation must be satasified. God's standard (Righteousness) Demands a Death/Blood shed for any sin. why? Because He says so. (That is the only explaination given.)
God is willing to accept the death of His Son on the behalf of all who would accept it.
So: Wrongs/sins committed by A against B.
C is killed thus compensating for the sins/wrong committed against B.
(August 20, 2012 at 12:40 am)Faith No More Wrote: Drich Wrote:Actually it does completely. If you are still confused then may i suggest rephrasing the question, for the question you asked has been answered.
Well, excuse me. I guess I don't speak crazy idiot.
Then rephrase your question. I answer the one you asked. If you do not understand the answer then it is obvious you do not fully understand the depth of your own question. Unless you make an effort to rephrase I do not know where to amend my explaination to make it easier to understand.
(August 20, 2012 at 12:23 am)Minimalist Wrote: Quote:Righteousness is the perfect Standard of God
Time to remind you once again, Drippy, that you have yet to provide evidence that your 'god' is anything more than a figment of your imagination.
Then in turn, I must ask again what would 'evidence' look like to you? What would you consider to be evidence? What tanagible object can one provide that you can not explain away?
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 9:48 am
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2012 at 9:50 am by The Grand Nudger.)
So, if I were to say that for every crime committed (from littering all the way to murder) a finger must be lopped off -because I say so- and that we don't actually have to lop off the finger of the person who committed the crime..anyone will do, the punishment can be carried out on a proxy.......
You'd be okay with this? Should we start writing this into law?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 9:51 am
(August 20, 2012 at 9:48 am)Rhythm Wrote: So, if I were to say that for every crime committed (from littering all the way to murder) a finger must be lopped off -because I say so- and that we don't actually have to lop off the finger of the person who committed the crime..anyone will do, the punishment can be carried out on a proxy.......
You'd be okay with this? Should we start writing this into law?
It depends. who are you?
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 9:53 am
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2012 at 9:55 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Full circle, why would it matter? We aren't looking to make special rules for our special friends are we? How does that square with the concept of justice (or righteousness)? Does justice or righteousness have a double standard embedded within it?
I'm just some guy who has applied your process of reasoning to an issue which is removed from your theology to see if your opinions outside of myth align with your opinion inside of myth. I'm guessing they don't.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 10:08 am
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2012 at 10:08 am by Drich.)
(August 20, 2012 at 9:53 am)Rhythm Wrote: Full circle, why would it matter? Authority. Do you have the authority to make this declaration?
Quote: We aren't looking to make special rules for our special friends are we?
Are you asking do we get to make rules for God because He makes them for us?  No, we do not.
Quote:How does that square with the concept of justice
Justice is a sense of fairness that man has established/agreed upon within the soceities he has established. (Justice varies from generation to generation from soceity to soceity.) Meaning is is not a standard it is a lable put upon whatever we find fair at the time.
Quote: (or righteousness)?
True Righteousness is the perfect standard of God.(It does not change) We know not all who are subject to God's righteousness will find it fair/just. (Those in Hell for example)
Quote:Does justice or righteousness have a double standard embedded within it?
Justice yes. righteousness no.
Quote:I'm just some guy who has applied your process of reasoning to an issue which is removed from your theology to see if your opinions outside of myth align with your opinion inside of myth. I'm guessing they don't.
Please explain.
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 11:08 am
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2012 at 11:19 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(August 20, 2012 at 10:08 am)Drich Wrote: Authority. Do you have the authority to make this declaration?
Sure, so long as enough of us agree, which is why I'm asking you if you agree with this principle of scapegoating, so that we might write it into law.
Quote:Justice is a sense of fairness that man has established/agreed upon within the soceities he has established. (Justice varies from generation to generation from soceity to soceity.) Meaning is is not a standard it is a lable put upon whatever we find fair at the time.
Fair enough, and your idea of what justice and righteousness means differs from mine somehow? I'm just going to keep asking you this, would you like to write scapegoating into our system of law?
Quote:True Righteousness is the perfect standard of God.(It does not change) We know not all who are subject to God's righteousness will find it fair/just. (Those in Hell for example)
Blueberries..... yadda yadda yadda..spare me the fucking platitudes Drich.
Quote:Justice yes. righteousness no.
LOL........okay. So, going by this we shouldn't write scapegoating into our system of justice...but if we wanted to be truly righteous we should engage in scapegoating? That about right? I'm wondering, btw, what the double standard embedded in the concept of justice is, care to point that out?
Quote:Please explain.
Already have, but I'll repeat myself. I think you're suffering from cognitive dissonance. That's my explanation. I think you have prepared a special box for your deity so as to excuse it for what you would judge negatively in human beings. I think you've created a scenario whereby you are forced to argue that might makes right, and I don't think that you would actually sign on with that argument in any other arena.
(I.O.W. Drich, I assume, almost on principle, that you are better than your arguments would imply)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 2:11 pm
(August 20, 2012 at 9:42 am)Drich Wrote: (August 20, 2012 at 9:13 am)pgrimes15 Wrote: It is still not clear to me why the death of anything compensates or counteracts any crimes/sins.
Wrongs/sins committed by A against B.
C is killed thus compensating for the sins/wrong committed against B.
How? I don't see the link.
Regards
Grimesy
I think I see the problem. Allow me to amend your equasion, maybe this will help.
A=Sinner
B=God
C=Christ.
All sins are commited against God. Therefore God sets the standard in which attonement/compensation must be satasified. God's standard (Righteousness) Demands a Death/Blood shed for any sin. why? Because He says so. (That is the only explaination given.)
Can I say then that the answer to the original question is "because god said so and we don't know his reasons"?
Regards
Grimesy
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 2:13 pm
Quote:Then in turn, I must ask again what would 'evidence' look like to you? What would you consider to be evidence? What tanagible object can one provide that you can not explain away?
Oh, I'll take anything you've got and examine it. And if I can explain it away it isn't very godlike, is it?
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 5:20 pm
Drich Wrote:If you do not understand the answer then it is obvious you do not fully understand the depth of your own question
Oh, go fuck yourself, you patronizing asshole. I asked what the source of righteousness was, and you answered with the incredibly vague answer of "righteousness is the perfect standard of god." Doesn't really answer if god is the source or not, does it?
BTW, there's no need to answer it now, because of your condescending attitude, I am just going to tell you to blow it out your ass.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Why was the crucifixion necessary ?
August 20, 2012 at 5:24 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2012 at 5:25 pm by pocaracas.)
(August 19, 2012 at 11:41 am)Drich Wrote: Yes Jesus HAD to die. Why? Because we are told God established the standard that any and all sin deserves Death. Righteousness demands that someone die for the sins committed against God. Jesus was that death for those who accept the offering made on their behalf.
I think I spotted your problem, there.
Who told you that?
How did that person come to have that knowledge (use recursion here until you arrive at the origin of the knowledge)?
(August 20, 2012 at 9:42 am)Drich Wrote: Then in turn, I must ask again what would 'evidence' look like to you? What would you consider to be evidence? What tanagible object can one provide that you can not explain away? To me, if there was a god, there wouldn't be any atheists. God would show it self to all.... and there wouldn't be more than one "belief system"... well, then it wouldn't be much of a "belief".... it would just be known to all that god is "such and such", because he would... tell us all, and keep reminding us all.... always himself, never through strange ancient fallible gullible proxies.
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