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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 5, 2012 at 11:09 am
(This post was last modified: December 5, 2012 at 11:16 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Doubtful, but it's fairly easy to prove that it's a useful concept, specifically with regards to the business of drawing conclusions, which is what "proving things" is all about. Since infinite regress cannot yield a conclusion it's beyond the bounds of the rules of the game - regardless of whether or not infinite regress is woven into the fabric of reality. The very idea of a first cause is a full on coronary with regards to the process that leads us to it. The argument contradicts itself, parades special pleading around like a badge of honor, graces us with a heaping helping of incredulity- and in case we liked icing on our cake - has trouble with composition.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm
I left this thread eons ago.... why the fuck did you guys resurrect it T_T.
Alright this discussion always ends up in the realms of masturbation: It feels really good but just makes a huge mess... EVERY.... TIME.
Anyway, everything we are talking about here is purely theoretical and lies outside of our ability to measure. Inside of our universe it appears most everything obeys the laws of cause and effect. However when talking about what happened pre-universe, if there was such a thing, we have NO IDEA what the rules would be.
If you step outside of our universe you theoretically step outside of all the scientific laws we know and observe. This does not actually give any more strength the idea of deity. A lot of people seem to think that if you can just get this argument to the point of metaphysics that all of the sudden God wins. No metaphysics simply means the study of that which is beyond the physical. I have even, since I last posted, figured out that some people even refer to spiritual and metaphysical in the same light.
Whatever is outside/caused our universe may or may not be metaphysical. We really have no way of knowing if there is even anything outside of the universe. This is why this whole argument is pure mental masturbation at this point. No one can prove one damn thing about pre-universe days because we cannot measure exactly what happened with our universe at the beginning.
Saying that God being metaphysical makes him immune to needing a cause is also mental masturbation. How do you know whether or not metaphysical things need a cause? There are some things that are metaphysical though that CLEARLY do require a cause. Ideas are a great example of this. An idea starts/is formed in the mind which is a product of a physical brain.
After this idea is formed and spoken it exists in either records or the minds of people who heard it. But you cannot really measure an idea like you can a particle of matter. An idea may be stored as an electrical signal or whatnot (forgive me I am not well studied on the intricacies of the brain) but I would still classify it as metaphysical. An idea can never be destroyed only forgotten.
So in a sense an idea is eternal but it still had a cause. Just saying God does not have a cause does not prove that he didn't. In fact what if God did exist but had a cause? How can we possibly know one way or the other on it? You cannot prove a metaphysical being exists without any proof. You can believe it or perceive it but that is all that is going on. The ontological, telelogical, cosmological, moral, faith, experience, and belief in inspiration of scripture arguments do not establish anything for certain.
The only one out of ANY of those arguments that can be measured is scripture and under scrutiny it does not hold up well. The other six are products of what people feel about something not what they can prove. I am not trying to say I can prove God does not exist, that is impossible. However I can certainly say that no one has proven he does exist either which is why I am Agnostic on the issue. True knowledge on this subject based on how everything is defined is IMPOSSIBLE.
Btw - its nice to see you all again :3
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 6, 2012 at 2:25 pm
(December 2, 2012 at 9:39 pm)Undeceived Wrote: 3. A personal, eternal, causeless being created the universe. He/she did not "come into existence", but always was. Here's the argument in summary: Infinite regress can only be avoided when the first efficient cause is eternal. But being eternal means having no change, and change is required to start a universe. That leaves us with only one solution: the eternal causal agent is a personal entity who can choose to make change in spite of his/her own changeless nature.
"A personal eternal causeless BEING" you post that as though its a resonable answer. Well it isn't.
It has the same problem of 'where did it come from' that you have just chosen to ignore and pretend the problem is solved.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 10, 2012 at 3:47 am
(December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm)Voltair Wrote: Saying that God being metaphysical makes him immune to needing a cause is also mental masturbation.
His being metaphysical, whatever that means, is not what makes him immune to needing a cause (notwithstanding your odd focus on masturbation). His being actus purus, eternal necessary being, is what makes him immune—and quite by definition, given the very meaning of these terms. You can summarily deny these attributes, if you like; however, that would simply indicate a preference for talking about any deity other than the God of biblical Christianity. I am somewhat confident that Christians don't mind their God going unrefuted.
"Metaphysics," you said, "simply means the study of that which is beyond the physical." No, that is not what it means. Metaphysics is the study of reality, of being, of what is—which sort of includes the physical or natural world. But it is not necessarily restricted to nature. It is a far bigger tent than that. Whereas science is the study of nature, metaphysics is the study of reality. Granted, there are those who claim that nature is all that reality consists of; but that is a metaphysical prejudice, not a scientific conclusion. Such a claim is outside the purview of science, a discipline which presupposes and concerns itself only with the natural world.
(December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm)Voltair Wrote: Just saying God does not have a cause does not prove that he didn't.
True. But then who ever thought otherwise? (Forgive me but I could not bring myself to read the entire thread.)
(December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm)Voltair Wrote: What if God did exist but had a cause?
Then you are no longer speaking about the God of biblical Christianity, thus leaving Christians with nothing to respond to. But again, I'm sure Christians do not mind their God going unrefuted.
(December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm)Voltair Wrote: You cannot prove a metaphysical being exists without any proof.
You cannot prove without proof. Man, yeah, that was deep.
(December 6, 2012 at 2:04 pm)Voltair Wrote: The ontological, telelogical, cosmological, moral, faith, experience, and belief in inspiration of scripture arguments do not establish anything for certain.
Sure, if granting your presuppositions and worldview criteria. But they are not granted, nor are they even relevant. Or maybe you're content to simply beg the question. But then why waste time with thoughtful responses? Just presuppose the truth of your view while rejecting all others that conflict with it and call it a day. Far less effort. No need to waste time with logical validity, rational consistency, skepticism, critical self-analysis, intellectual maturity and growth and all that crap. What a bunch of masturbation.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 10, 2012 at 4:15 am
Welcome back, Ryft ... even if for a short time.
We were talking about you quite recently - and three days later - you return!
Hehe.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 10, 2012 at 4:29 am
(This post was last modified: December 10, 2012 at 4:33 am by Welsh cake.)
(December 10, 2012 at 4:15 am)Rayaan Wrote: Welcome back, Ryft ... even if for a short time.
We were talking about you quite recently - and three days later - you return!
Hehe.
Like Beetlejuice. You summon him if you say his name too many times.
And he's still going on about metaphysics as if it should carry any weight in the discussion (pun intended). Yeah, here's my thoughts to the whole mess, summed up in these videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS4PW35-Y00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZTCK8ZluEc
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 10, 2012 at 4:40 am
(December 10, 2012 at 4:15 am)Rayaan Wrote: Welcome back, Ryft ... even if for a short time. ;)
We were talking about you quite recently - and three days later - you return!
Hehe.
Weird coincidence.
Talking about me? Not sure I want to read that! Heheh.
Yeah, life took a weird turn. There's this girl, and stuff. But thanks for the welcome. Always good to see you, mate.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 10, 2012 at 4:42 am
(December 10, 2012 at 4:29 am)Welsh cake Wrote: Like Beetlejuice. You summon him if you say his name too many times.
It was more likely a coincidence.
(December 10, 2012 at 4:29 am)Welsh cake Wrote: And he's still going on about metaphysics as if it should carry any weight in the discussion (pun intended). Yeah, here's my thoughts to the whole mess, summed up in these videos.
Well, apparently, he addressed a post that was related to metaphysics.
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 10, 2012 at 4:51 am
back Ryft!
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RE: The idea of God always existing
December 11, 2012 at 1:44 am
Oh crap. Ryft is back. Now we have to think again.
My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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