Why do politicians apologise for islam?

[Thumpalumpacus]

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IS isn't representative of anything beyond its membership.

Have you actually read the biography of Mohammed?

https://archive.org/stream/TheLifeOfMoha..._Guillaume


There's an awful lot of battles, raids, and attacks here. It's not exactly the same as Jesus "love your neighbour" is it?

The prophet Mohammed commanded 65 military campaigns, and fought in 27 of them. Can't recall how many battles Jesus fought in... oh yeah, it was none! (Not that I'm defending Christianity, just pointing out that apples ain't oranges).

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Nothing you posted answers my point. Christ and Muhammed were both equally fuckheaded, but you were talking about muslims alive today, not Muhammed.

Perhaps you should first decide what your argument is going to be, and then put it forth, rather than just shotgunning ideas hoping some will stick in the wall?

Give your evidence showing that Muslims the world over support ISIS, or modify your point. Exercise your critical thinking skills, employ your intelligence, and demonstrate your reasoning.

-- or lose audience.

[mralstoner]

Christ and Muhammed were both equally fuckheaded, but you were talking about muslims alive today, not Muhammed.

Equally fuckheaded? Oh really. If you read the biographies of Mohammed and Jesus to a 5th grader, even they could see that Mohammed was a far more violent man than Jesus.

Since the key precept in both religions is the imitation of their archetypal prophets, it's only logical that Islam is more likely to inspire violence than Christianity. Not surprisingly, the data fits the theory i.e just watch the freakin news.

Give your evidence showing that Muslims the world over support ISIS, or modify your point. Exercise your critical thinking skills, employ your intelligence, and demonstrate your reasoning...

The critical question is not what "Muslims the world over support" because Muslims, like Christians, are many and varied. No, the critical question is: do the extremists have a convincing/plausible interpretation of Islam or not? And the answer to that is: yes they undeniably do, just read the biography of Mohammed: headchopping, rape, slavery, torture etc. The life of Jesus (a hippy) in no way compares to Mohammed (a butchering, warlord rapist).

This makes the Islamic holy books are clear and present danger to the non-Muslim world, because it means that in any given Muslim population a significant percentage will be drawn to this extremist (yet plausible) interpretation. What we do about it is another question entirely. The two religions are equally delusional, but the archetypal example (the key concept of both religions) of Mohammed is far more likely to inspire violence than Jesus. Even a 5th grader can see it.

(Yes the Old Testament is also barbaric, but largely rendered moot by the peaceful example of Jesus).

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I rather think that the comparison between Jesus and Mohammed is not really applicable. Mohammed was a prophet of God, Jesus was God (according to the relevant PR departments, I mean). A more apt comparison might be between Mohammed and Joshua.

Boru

[Thumpalumpacus]

Equally fuckheaded? Oh really. If you read the biographies of Mohammed and Jesus to a 5th grader, even they could see that Mohammed was a far more violent man than Jesus.

I said "equally fuckheaded". I didn't say they were equally violent in today's world.

Of course, if you look at the 30 Years' War, you'd realize that Christians are no slouch at violence, either.

Since the key precept in both religions is the imitation of their archetypal prophets, it's only logical that Islam is more likely to inspire violence than Christianity. Not surprisingly, the data fits the theory i.e just watch the freakin news.

That's not the key precept of either religion. The key precept of Christianity is the acceptance of the "sacrifice" of Christ as a means for redemption, and the key precept of Islam is submission to Allah's will. The imitation of the prophets is a tertiary imperative ... if even that.

Additionally, you're still not answering my original point, which is that IS is not representative of the wider Muslim community.

The critical question is not what "Muslims the world over support" because Muslims, like Christians, are many and varied.

Actually, that is the question, because the OP said, "So if you're reading this, islam wants you dead !" as if it's a monolilthic mass of believers worldwide. That is exactly why I'm making this point as well.

No, the critical question is: do the extremists have a convincing/plausible interpretation of Islam or not? And the answer to that is: yes they undeniably do, just read the biography of Mohammed: headchopping, rape, slavery, torture etc. The life of Jesus (a hippy) in no way compares to Mohammed (a butchering, warlord rapist).

IN that sense, sure. But that is not put into practice by the vast majority of the world's Muslims, and acting as if it is is not accurate.

This makes the Islamic holy books are clear and present danger to the non-Muslim world, because it means that in any given Muslim population a significant percentage will be drawn to this extremist (yet plausible) interpretation.

[Emphasis added -- Thump]

Define "significant percentage", and back that claim up with data.

What we do about it is another question entirely. The two religions are equally delusional, but the archetypal example (the key concept of both religions) of Mohammed is far more likely to inspire violence than Jesus. Even a 5th grader can see it.

That's probably true -- but it doesn't answer my point, because my point was about how representative IS is.

(Yes the Old Testament is also barbaric, but largely rendered moot by the peaceful example of Jesus).

I'd suggest you read your Bible a little more; it has passages which undermine this misunderstanding of yours.

[lifesagift]

Give your evidence showing that Muslims the world over support ISIS, or modify your point. Exercise your critical thinking skills, employ your intelligence, and demonstrate your reasoning.

-- or lose audience.

Or maybe muslims the world over should show that they don't support IS !!!

After all it's the same instruction manual they read.

Or would they rather unpack their new 52inch tv tonight than going out to smite the infidel?



Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

[Minimalist]

"not the true islam"? why do big leaders lie?

Because if you say something nasty about this particular fairy tale its supposedly 'moderate' and 'peaceful' adherents will riot in the streets, threaten your cartoonists, and storm your embassies.

Why else is it called the 'religion of peace?'

[mralstoner]

Of course, if you look at the 30 Years' War, you'd realize that Christians are no slouch at violence, either.

My point is that religious doctrine/ideology inspires violence. This is easily observable with Muslims who quote liberally from their holy books to justify their violence. The same can't be said of Christians who have to twist spiritual passages like "take up your cross".

That's not the key precept of either religion. The key precept of Christianity is the acceptance of the "sacrifice" of Christ as a means for redemption, and the key precept of Islam is submission to Allah's will. The imitation of the prophets is a tertiary imperative ... if even that.

You're splitting hairs. In practical terms, in this earthly life, the key precept in both religions is the imitation of their prophets. Mohammed is a "beautiful pattern of conduct" to follow (90 verses in the Koran say that). Jesus said "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me". Actions speak louder than words, that's why their behavioural example is important. (And "Allah's will" is that dying while fighting for the sake of Allah is the noblest deed, hence they go straight to paradise.)

Additionally, you're still not answering my original point, which is that IS is not representative of the wider Muslim community.

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it". (2:216) i.e. martyrdom for Allah is the greatest thing a Muslim can do, but it's no surprise that many Muslims don't want anything to do with it.

Define "significant percentage", and back that claim up with data.

You look quite normal but you're deep into liberal loony la la land. It's irrelevant what the percentage is. Just look at how stretched our Western intelligence agencies are trying to cope with all the local Muslims who are inspired by ISIS to commit terrorism here. We can't cope now, let alone in the future.

I'd suggest you read your Bible a little more; it has passages which undermine this misunderstanding of yours.

Wrong again. I'm here defending rationality and the West world, not Christianity. Islam is a clear and present danger. You must live in a Ben Affleck fantasy world where religious doctrine is somehow beyond comprehension/analysis, or irrelevant. I live in the real world where there are clear themes in the different religions, they're obviously not all the same, and not equally capable of inspiring violence.

Badminton and Thai Boxing are both sports, but not equally violent. Ditto with religions ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE

[Thumpalumpacus]

Give your evidence showing that Muslims the world over support ISIS, or modify your point. Exercise your critical thinking skills, employ your intelligence, and demonstrate your reasoning.

-- or lose audience.

Or maybe muslims the world over should show that they don't support IS !!!

After all it's the same instruction manual they read.

Or would they rather unpack their new 52inch tv tonight than going out to smite the infidel?



Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Pretty sure this is a double standard. I haven't seen you criticizing WBC lately.

There have been well-known Muslim clerics who explicitly disavow IS.

Did Billy Graham ever criticize the Christians killing each other in Ireland? More to the point, did you expect him to?

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My point is that religious doctrine/ideology inspires violence. This is easily observable with Muslims who quote liberally from their holy books to justify their violence. The same can't be said of Christians who have to twist spiritual passages like "take up your cross".

You missed my point, which is that religious differences can result in murderous behavior in any sect. I could have chosen a more recent example (cf. the Irish Troubles). They don't have to twist anything at all,; they merely need to kill over religious differences.

You're splitting hairs. In practical terms, in this earthly life, the key precept in both religions is the imitation of their prophets. Mohammed is a "beautiful pattern of conduct" to follow (90 verses in the Koran say that). Jesus said "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me". Actions speak louder than words, that's why their behavioural example is important. (And "Allah's will" is that dying while fighting for the sake of Allah is the noblest deed, hence they go straight to paradise.)

I'm not "splitting hairs"; you're hunting flies with sledgehammers. You say "Actions speak louder than words", yet you ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in this world are not practitioners of religious violence -- and then you quote words to criticize them no matter their inaction.

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it". (2:216) i.e. martyrdom for Allah is the greatest thing a Muslim can do, but it's no surprise that many Muslims don't want anything to do with it.

So, while you say above that "actions speak louder than words, you're now arguing that Allah's complaint is also damning?

Clearly, you're biased against their faith -- as am I, by the way. But the difference between you and I is that you aren't taking the time or effort to question your own premises; you're being mentally lazy, and sucking the mass-media teat.

You look quite normal but you're deep into liberal loony la la land. It's irrelevant what the percentage is. Just look at how stretched our Western intelligence agencies are trying to cope with all the local Muslims who are inspired by ISIS to commit terrorism here. We can't cope now, let alone in the future.

First -- define "local", and then cite numbers for how many plots are in the works. You clearly have an inside line on this sort of stuff, but if you want to be convincing, you'll need to say what you know.

What is the basis for your claim here? Provide objective sources. Your word carries no weight on this side of the screen, and likely not on those of the readers of this thread.

Give data.

Wrong again. I'm here defending rationality and the West world, not Christianity. Islam is a clear and present danger. You must live in a Ben Affleck fantasy world where religious doctrine is somehow beyond comprehension/analysis, or irrelevant. I live in the real world where there are clear themes in the different religions, they're obviously not all the same, and not equally capable of inspiring violence.

I didn't accuse you of defending Christianity; I'd suggest you reread my point, this time for comprehension rather than rhetoric. I pointed out to you that there are passages in the Bible that clearly state that Jesus did not obviate the Old Testament brutality that you so rightly criticize.

I'll be happy to link to those passages. You clearly haven't read them, as you didn't understand my reference. Ask nicely, and I'll give you a link. Or, we could have a game and let the first reader who knows the verses I'm talking about pipe up.

Badminton and Thai Boxing are both sports, but not equally violent. Ditto with religions ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE

I don't think Islam and Christianity are equally violent; that is your strawman you've built. What I said, for the English-impaired, is that ISIS does not represent Muslims as a whole.

When you learn to read English, get back to me.

Until then, understand that you're beating a piñata -- not my point.

[mralstoner]

Until then, understand that you're beating a piñata -- not my point.

Yeah, we live on different planets.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Until then, understand that you're beating a piñata -- not my point.

Yeah, we live on different planets.

No, you're beating up a piñata. You've loaded it with your favorite sweets and are swatting at it with vigor. You clearly find the dish I'm serving unsavory ... just as children prefer candy to vegetables.