Colorado parents of transgender 1st-grader file complaint over restroom ban

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You're committing the appeal to definition fallacy. Just because the boys bathroom nowadays is defined as the place where humans with penises go doesn't mean it should be defined that way.

This is not unlike how fundies say gay marriage is wrong because marriage is "defined as between a man and a woman."

Funny, here I thought it was an argument from establishment, oft-defended with an argument from authority

But your phrase works too This is actually getting to be fun. I hope nobody says something so supremely stupid in the rest of these pages that it ruins my good mood ^_^

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Wrong.

When it comes to a 6 year old we are not talking about his sexual desires. We are talking about how he likes to dress up and play, and his parents are pushing a fantasy agenda "Pssst, don't call him a him". The bathroom is being used because it is the only point they can push because the school is living in a reality they don't want to share. They can't sue because the teacher refuses to use the feminin pronoun.

This really is not about the kid at all. He is their plaything. A 6 year old who has no sexual fetish, but just likes dolls and dressup.

Funny... I never realized that transsexualism was a sexual fetish, but I suppose it must be one for somebody out there, I mean... tentacles and shit-eating, people.

*coughs*

It probably is like this, but it's just supposition on our part. We weren't the psychologist the parents went to who said 'your child is a girl', we really have no clue in the world. Why we're even discussing this case after recognizing that we're projecting is beyond me... unless we haven't realized that yet, in which case: do carry on good sir

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I actually thought of coming to your defense in that thread, but then remembered how you consistently act like a douche.

If ya want, you can totally question everything I've ever suggested anywhere, and please talk to me about it I like good debate, discussion... actually finding the very best definition at our disposal for various tasks (example... I'm wholly forefront about my being a male woman, I am also totally kosher with neither being male nor woman depending on definition used.).

Unfortunately, I usually just get a 'THIS IS THE FUCKING OFFICIAL DEFINITION' 'Well, it's inaccurate' shouting match.

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And you know this how? Transgendered adults will often tell you that they felt being in the wrong gender from early on. It didn't just hit them at 13.

Depends... define 'hit them'? Because as I think of it... it 'hit me' on my 13th birthday, lying in bed next to a guy I'd just blown. Certainly, I'd asked the question many a time before then of 'would you still love me... if I were a girl?' or 'would you disown me if I were a girl?', but I wasn't wholly secure in my understanding of my gender until that night.

I really disliked being separated from the other girls, though... typically, my imagination had me cast as a girl from very early on (I actually cannot think of any single imagining where I was a guy... because even if I started one with a guy character, they were usually a girl by the end of the fantasy world. Magic OP).

And since when is transgenderism a "fetish"?

Since men started buying 'tranny porn', I guess. I'm just impressed that it's as marketable as it is

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In the Phsychological world, when you apply the need to wear things that are not considered a societal norm (like men wearing womens underwear), it is called a "fetish". For a 6-year old, I would never consider it as one, but since you are attaching it to a sexual connection repeatedly, then the term reasonably applies.

Cross-dresser's normally, while presenting a lie, do not deny the truth. Those who hide are subject to fetishism, while those who do not, are excluded.

But since there is no reason in thie thread, I'll just let it die.

Honey... that's transvestitism. Not exactly the same thing as transsexualism (or the slightly broader but still morphologically inaccurate 'transgenderism').

Maybe, if you were interested in finding reason, your first place to go might not be gross misappropriation of terms that have nothing to do with the subject at hand

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You are confusing the obsession of a specific object that would make one sexually aroused with the use of objects like clothing that would communicate the person's identity. The former is for the purpose of sex, the latter is for the purpose of identity.

Identity, or self-expression. Really, they're about the same. I know that I was a major fan of a red ballerina costume when I was 5-7 or some age... and that my parents told me to take it off

It was depressing that my sister and her friend later got to wear that same costume with absolutely no issue from my parents. Much less that wonderfully shocked feeling of seeing myself in a purple dress in 4th grade, suddenly feeling secure in myself, content, and even a little shy.

Not that my parents would allow me to wear it for longer than the school 'play/event' I made which involved a grand candy-heist from the girls by sneaking into their society. Ahhhhh... so creative was I, and yet I didn't contest wearing clothing like the dress nearly hard enough with my parents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DSSFJJ5Wo4

Ah well... missed opportunities.

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Unisex bathrooms for the school issue isn't going to take away the issue completely, yes ShellB. When they're adults they'll have to do what they do now because it's not plausible to demand unisex bathrooms for all accommodations.

Sure it is. Hang a unisex sign over the men/women signs... viola: unisex bathrooms.

Fuck urinals, but that's a personal thing... it was always a little unsettling/amusing/embarrassing for me to see guys with their dicks out staring dead-forward, refusing to look at the guy next to them doing the same thing.



I'd say it was hot, but it was really far too ridiculous for me to find any particular pleasure in.

Truth of the matter is, they go into the bathroom they identify with in the end anyways, don't they? I see the implications of where this would be going--require unisex bathrooms by law. Or god forbid make it illegal for them to use the bathroom of their choice.

Hopefully yes, as it means they're dealing with the hand nature dealt them... and typically won't be dealing with the dysphoria on top of everything else by then. Of course... maybe life decided to just shit all over them, in which case they were kinda screwed regardless... sucks to be them.

In the words of one of my best friends: "Being trans is one giant clusterfuck."

I simply can't imagine any way in which putting a petite woman in the mens room might give someone the wrong idea. However... I can certainly imagine a transwoman who definitely doesn't "pass" getting clocked by a man with a not-insignificant level of trans hate...

Or the cops being called when a transman enters the women's. I am completely incapable of envisioning how that might go poorly.

But I don't see the public restroom issue as being the same as the school restroom issue. I believe that since they are kids we do have a responsibility to protect them from all iniquities, and making a girl go into a boy bathroom is wrong and likewise. Not to mention making girls go to the bathroom with a boy and likewise. It's different at school than it is when you're in public--no one knows your true gender. If they identify as a girl (she damn near fooled me!) and cannot go to the girls bathroom then it's not too much to require a unisex bathroom in schools.

I'm a particular fan of unisex bathrooms. I've heard some truly hilarious arguments against them, such as 'a man might come in and bug the room!'... I think the whole segregated sexes thing is altogether rather sexist.

It's pretty easy to pass at 6... the boys and girls all look the same

I think it is preferable than giving her special instructions for going to the bathroom and making her feel picked out by having to go to the nurses office or dealing with adults looking at you in the office just because you gotta go to the restroom. One should be able to feel normal when going the bathroom is my point. She has rights too, how would you feel if you couldn't use either of the bathrooms and had to go to the office to get a key for the teacher's bathroom? And I hate to say it, but she might not be 'confused' about her sexual identity at all. Maybe it's us who are confused!

Oh gods... you have to get a key to use it? Like... routinely get a key? That's fucked up.

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But, really, what is the problem with her using the women's room? I mean, I'm willing to bet had nobody brought this up, she would have been able to live her life like a normal, average little girl. Now she got thrown into the middle of a media shitstorm, effectively outing her to the entire school. She may have had lots of friends before, but there's a good chance that a lot of her friends' parents won't let them play with her anymore (or they're going to tell their kids how evil and sinful she is). This may have done some serious damage to her childhood.

This is my biggest concern with the story... I'm fairly aghast that parents willing to even consider that their child might be trans would not recognize what outing someone does to them.

I got hit hard with the whole 'nobody being allowed to come over to my house' or even talk to me after I came out (I was 13). It's not even just her childhood which might have been wrecked here... shit gets serious in upper elemtary school, middle school, and high school, the bullying which she's likely to go through is absolutely unreasonable, and I have serious trouble believing that the parents would ever challenge the issue in such a public manner if they gave a rat's ass about her.

Makes me think the parents are really out for attention... and if she is indeed trans, then they're essentially making her a spectacle. 'Come look at our freak daughter...'

And, no, I don't think she's confused. My standing rule is, if someone personally identifies as a girl, I treat them like a girl. I know some people think she's bit young, but at what age do we decide she's not too young to determine her gender? At 10? Or 12? Or 16 or 18? The longer you wait, the more difficult transition is, especially after puberty sets in and you start having to deal with hormones you don't want. If she's allowed to transition now, she may be able to avoid growing facial hair (saving her time, money and pain from electrolysis), more masculine build (making clothes shopping more difficult) and a deepening voice. I don't want to be the one who tells a young lady that she has to undergo boy-puberty before I'll consider her a girl; do you?

The age where people suddenly start accepting that humans make decisions and have personality is arbitrary.

I'd wait a few years at this point and see where things go... but I'd absolutely give HRT before puberty if it was urgently enough requested of me, or if I was asked to allow it for long enough. Having been through it... I would never wish it on anyone.