Colorado parents of transgender 1st-grader file complaint over restroom ban

[Violet]

Violet, I don't understand why you can't address the issue at hand here, and why you feel the need to blow it way out of proportion with straw man arguments. Nothing about the school's ruling is about 1. intersex people or 2. adults who are transsexual.

My MO is to take the argument presented to me as far as it can go. If they'd like to remove my ability to do so, they'll just have to be more specific, Bob

1: How is the statement 'penis=boys room, vagina =girls room' not going to cause issues with intersex students who have both sex's sets of genitalia (however 'completely formed')?

2: Adults who are transsexual were often children who were transsexual... and having been a child with gender dysphoria, I have only bad memories of boys bathrooms, locker rooms, and I can still remember the feelings of dread, fear, and complete embarrassment of entering such rooms by necessity.

* Violet giggles a little.

I think my first bathroom uses at school were of the girl's room, then the teacher or assistant or whatever told me that I had to use the other one. I was five, mate... how was I supposed to understand the rationale behind that?

You're simply projecting the perceived "rights" of intersex and transsexual adults onto children who are neither intersex nor transsexual. This has nothing to do with your right to use the woman's restroom.

Evidence and the clinical opinion of someone more qualified than either of us would suggest that this child is infact transgendered.

I'm unconcerned with whether it be 'my right' to use the women's or not... I'm going to be doing it, regardless. I am, however... concerned about someone with the chance to never have to deal with 'the bathroom dilemma' (a major trans experience that few (if any) of us hold positively) being denied that chance in a place where it's actually illegal to do so

Further... it's not projecting: I'm a firm advocate of children's rights, regardless of their similarity/dissimilarity to me. I'm not one for segregating behavior, especially with things wholly out of a child's control... next thing you know, we'll be back to arguing for black people having to use different bathrooms (if they're allowed in at all, lol). Again... in colorado: doing that is illegal with transsexual people, a person isn't made any less black with being 6 years old, how is it any different with homosexual or transsexual people, or people with large moles on their face?

Your points on gender are also highly opinionated. Gender is biological. It isn't chromosomal, although in humans chromosomes generally determine a person's gender. People who are intersex are still either biologically male or female, humans are simply built that way and we can't be neither I'm afraid, nor can we be both. Would we expect there to be bathroom exceptions for intersex people? Of course. Does that mean they should be allowed to compete against women if they're biologically male in sports? Probably not.

Very wrong, sonny. Sex is biological, gender is a social compartmentalization of traits associated with the roles of 'the sexes'... ergo, if someone matches most of the traits of a particular gender (not necessarily a dichotomy, observe india and native americans): they are party to that compartment.

What determines a person's gender... is personality, and the roles which they take in society. Honestly, our gendering system being a dichotomy shows such a massive set of contradictory traits (independent working woman, stay-at-home dads) that I sometimes wish we'd just adopt the Qun

Intersex people are sometimes neither XY or XX (but of alternate conditions, like the previously alluded to XXY). Their sex chromosomes are often goofed in some form or another... but really, it's irrelevant.

Anyway... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_an...y_syndrome several of these women have participated in the olympics (often without even knowing they had the condition), I mean... http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/30/...r-20120730

What does being 'biologically male' even mean?

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Ignoring the massive walls of text for the sake brevity and nonemotional discourse, if bathrooms are not split up according to genitals, explain why you can't get a fucking tampon in the men's room. Could it be because men don't have vaginas? I'm afraid that could be the very reason.

Tampons are great for nosebleeds, I don't really get the sexualization of a blood-absorbing device for bleeding holes. It's certainly be nice after being anally raped too... or having such a horrible pooping experience that you're bleeding.

Transmen have vaginas, and when they start using the mens, they sometimes have to deal with that (bring your own tampon(s), what a party!).

So, there's at least one type of person with a vagina in the men's room. Intersex individuals might be there either, and if they have functioning ovaries alongside that enormously engorged clit... that's going to suck too.

Baby tables are less common in men's bathrooms too... that couldn't possibly have anything to do with socially-observed gender expectations.

Bathrooms are designed according to genitals. You might not like it. You might think I am "appealing to authority," though appealing to rational design clearly makes more sense, but that is the way it is. Now, just as a lesson in what these logic terms you bandy about actually mean, an appeal to authority would go something like, "It is illegal for you to use the ladies room. Therefore, you should not use the ladies room." I said no such thing. The appeal to authority goes to Aractus, but I wouldn't expect anyone cares about the definitions of logic terms. *le sigh*

No... urinals are designed with accordance to genitals, and it's really the only readily observable difference between men's and women's bathrooms. It's also a device that is far less likely to be present in a person's home,

The bathrooms themselves are remarkably similar. The toilets and sinks are identical, mirrors in both if they're in either... though there's plenty of jokes about the difference between the bathrooms.



But they're just that... jokes. Now me, having been in both bathrooms, would like to point out the one key difference between them: the body type of the people within. If I go to the mens, I can expect it to be populated with boys and men... if I go to the womens, I can expect it to be populated with girls and women. I don't know about the genitals of anyone who isn't using the urinals... and it doesn't matter: the clear difference is in the general body shape, personalities, and cultural expectations.

I don't think you're appealing to any authority at all (what does an authority have to do or say regarding the gendered bathrooms dichotomy and with people's increasing levels of shame and discomfort with their bodies as we become a society with a vast amount more personal space?)... anyway, it's generally considered to be socially wrong (and assumed illegal) for a man to be in the women's.

And this is probably my sexism showing here: I don't hear about women being arrested or accosted for using the men's nearly as often as I hear tale of the other. Infact, I've never heard of it

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I can't help you with Arachnis, but I do so hate to see you and Violet savaging each other. May I suggest a civilized alternative? Mudwrestling! The best way known way for two gals to clear the air .. no matter which bathroom their genitalia befit them to enter. Some say pillow fights are an acceptable alternative but I say no pain, no gain.

I don't savage people, as I am not Lillian the Barbarian

When a person makes an unreasonable blanket (especially if it's myself), they need to recognize that. Penises and vaginas simply aren't at the forefront of someone's mind when they are cordially interacting with/trying to ignore strangers (or at least, I certainly hope they aren't!).

/Sexism that is nonetheless what she feels: I'd feel significantly more threatened if a big burly man were to walk into my bathroom (even (especially) if I'm in the men's, lol)... I'm a hell of a lot less caring about his possible presence of penis than I am about the massive muscles, (possibly) agressive stance, and want to be out of there ASAP (poor gentle giants, have to deal with this bullshit rep).